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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT
ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
APPELLATE DIVISION
APPEAL NO. 97-410AP
VS.
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LIQUID, INC.
APPELLANT,
CITY OF MIAMI BEACH, A MUNICIPAL CORPORATION
APPELLEE.
ORIGINAL RECORD ON APPEAL FROM
THE CITY SPECIAL MASTER,
MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA
LOWER TRIBUNAL CASE NO. JAH97228
ROBERT L. SWITKES, ESQ
PENTHOUSE SOUTHEAST
407 LINCOLN ROAD
MIAMI BEACH, FL 33139
MURRAY H. DUBBIN
CITY ATTORNEY
OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY
1700 CONVENTION CENTER DRIVE
MIAMI BEACH, FL 33139
ATTORNEY FOR APPELLANT
ATTORNEY FOR APPELLEE
VOLUME 2
1 !
CITY OF MIAMI BEACH
1700 CONVENTION CENTER DRIVE
MIAMI BEACH, FLORIDA 33139
ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING
RE: CLUB LIQUID
HEARING DATE: October 21, 1997
BEFORE SPECIAL MASTER EUNICE MARTIN
(E X C E R P T)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
2
PRESENT:
ROSEN & SWITKES
BY: ROBERT SWITKES, ESQ.
407 Lincoln Road
Miami Beach, Florida 33139
On Behalf of Appellant
CITY OF MIAMI BEACH
BY: GOLDSTEIN, ESQ.
1700 Convention Center Drive
Miami Beach, Florida 33139
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
3
1
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
2 (Thereupon, the following proceedings
3 were had:)
4 THE COURT: I will just state that my
5 name is Eunice Martin.
6 These are overcrowding violation cases
7 so I guess I'm going to take them one by one, or
8 should I take them in group, or what.
9 What would you like to --
10
UNIDENTI FlED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
11
THE COURT: How many cases are involved?
12
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE)
13
cases?
14
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
15
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
16
MR. SWITKES:
(INAUDIBLE) has paid the
17
fines, so those are not outstanding, and my
18
understanding is that there has been disposition
19
and agreement between the City and Twist where
20
they dismissed two of the citations, they paid
21
one and
22
THE COURT: So that's three cases
23
we don't have to hear?
24
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
4
1
(Multiple speakers, INAUDIBLE.)
2
THE COURT: Okay. Then that's it. So,
3
we'll deal with them
4
Mr. Switkes, is it proper
would
5
you prefer to have them heard one by one? Or
6
would you prefer to have them heard as a group?
7
MR. SWITKES:
I think it's a great
8
suggestion. I was going to suggest that legally
9
the issue is identical.
10
Factually, obviously, the factual basis
11
for violations would have to be testified about
12
and my client could testify. But legally, there
13
is no sense in me making a record three times on
14
the same legal issues that have to be preserved
15
for appeal.
16
THE COURT: Okay. And would you state
17
your name, please?
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Mark Goldstein, for
19
the City of Miami Beach.
20
THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, do you have
21
any preference as to hearing the cases one by
22
one or as a group?
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
I think one by one
24
is probably more appropriate, because they
25
involve different inspectors on each case.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
5
1
However, I'm not sure about the Twist
2
matters, but Mr. Switkes would have better
3
knowledge of that.
I just don't want to
4
dismiss this one Twist citation prematurely.
5
THE COURT:
I'm not doing anything.
6
I've been told that they've been
7
dismissed before they got to me, so personally,
8
I'm not going to do anything. If the Department
9
makes an announcement that they have been
10
dismissed, I'll ratify that. But, I'm not doing
11
anything other than that.
12
So, why don't we take them one only one?
13
MR. SWITKES: While you were turned and
14
talking to your clients, I think the judge and I
15
were discussing the fact that, although
16
factually each one of these citations have to be
17
testify to, legally, the legal arguments for all
18
three are identical and it would be crazy to go
19
through each case. So, if we go one case and
20
then if the Court allows me to adopt the same
21
legal arguments, it will save us an inordinate
22
amount of time.
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Oh, I don't have a
24
problem with that.
25
THE COURT: Why don't we take the
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
6
1
first one, and then if it appears -- and we have
2
done this his before -- if it appears that the
3
facts are based quite similarly, the only thing
4
you may want to add is the individual testimony
5
of the inspectors and preclude any additional
6
legal argument.
7
So let's call the first case, please.
8
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: At this time I
9
will swear in anybody.
10
(Thereupon, all those scheduled to
11
testify were duly sworn.)
12
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The cases that we
13
are dealing with today are all regarding Liquid,
14
located at 1439 Washington Avenue. Case Numbers
15
97-228, 97-227 and 97-235.
16
We are going to be starting with Case
17
Number 97-228, which is an appeal of the
18
overcrowding violation Citation Number FB 97-
19
0029.
20
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Lieutenant
21
Goldberg.
22
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE)
23
Special Master:
24
THE COURT: Okay. Are you just
25
taking a break to try to work out the details?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
7
1
Okay. We'll just take a minute.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: (INAUDIBLE)
3
THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a
4
break. No problem.
5
(Thereupon, there was an interruption
6
in the proceedings) .
7
THE COURT: Do you want to take a
8
5-minute recess?
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I apologize, Special
10
Master.
11
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE) Case
12
Number 97-228, which is an appeal of an
13
overcrowding violation (INAUDIBLE).
14
THE COURT: Procedurally, it is my
15
understanding that we start with the person who
16
filed the petition in this case. That would be
17
Mr. Switkes, and then we'll hear from the City.
18
Is that acceptable?
19
MR. SWITKES: Mr. Goldberg will be fine
20
as the first witness.
21
Can you give me the date of the
22
citation, because --
23
(INAUDIBLE DISCUSSION)
24
MR. SWITKES: Lieutenant Goldberg --
25
THE COURT: Give me a piece of paper, I
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
8
1
need to make some notes. Thank you.
2
I'm sorry, go right ahead.
3
MR. SWITKES: Lieutenant Goldberg, were
4
you on duty working for the city of Miami Beach
5
on 8/10/97?
6
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
7
MR. SWITKES: And what were you doing
8
that evening?
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I was doing night
10
inspections.
11
MR. SWITKES: It sounds like
12
you were doing night inspections last night.
13
Could you speak into microphone?
14
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can I just get
15
him to state his name (INAUDIBLE)
16
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Lieutenant David
17
Goldberg, City of Miami Beach Fire Prevention
18
Division
19
MR. SWITKES: And on the evening of
20
8/10/97 did you enter the premises of Liquid?
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes, I did.
22
MR. SWITKES: Okay. Liquid is divided
23
intoltwo separate areas, if I understand
24
correctly. Can you describe them for us?
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: OK. They have
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
9
1
the area that has always been there is Liquid
2
upstairs. Now they have an area they call the
3
lounge downstairs to Liquid upstairs.
4
MR. SWITKES: At any time viewing,
5
how many people were downstairs in the lounge?
6
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The lounge was
7
fine.
8
MR. SWITKES: How many people were in
9
the lounge when you visited?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: They were under
11
(INAUDIBLE) about one hundred ten, one hundred
12
fifteen.
13
MR. SWITKES: And what is the occupant
14
limit?
15
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Like one hundred
16
eighty-nine.
17
MR. SWITKES: Like one hundred eighty-
18
nine or one hundred eighty-nine?
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: In was In the one
20
hundred eighties.
21
MR. SWITKES: And what is the occupant
22
load in the upstairs?
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Four hundred
24
sixteen.
25
MR. SWITKES: Not four hundred
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
10
1
seventeen?
2
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Four hundred
3
sixteen.
4
MR. SWITKES: Do you have any
5
documentation to prove that?
6
(Pause in tape.)
7
MR. SWITKES: And you are showing me
8
what for the Court?
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Four hundred
10
sixteen.
11
MR. SWITKES: You are showing me --
12
what lS this document you are referring to?
13
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: This is a list of
14
all the occupant loads in the different clubs on
15
Miami Beach.
16
MR. SWITKES: And you are looking at a
17
page where Liquid is listed and it says 1439
18
Washington Avenue?
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Correct.
20
MR. SWITKES: And the occupant load is
21
four hundred sixteen? And how many exits are
22
listed?
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Two.
24
MR. SWITKES: Now, what would the exits
25
have to do with the occupant load?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
11
1
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Okay. Liquid was
2
built under 1985 Fire Safety Code. 1985 Code
3
required if you had over five hundred occupants
4
in the club, you required three exits. Liquid
5
only has two exits. Liquid has a very small
6
staircase in the front which restricts their
7
occupant load. That's why it's four hundred
8
sixteen presently.
9
MR. SWITKES: How many square feet are
10
there upstairs?
11
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Their gross or
12
net?
13
MR. SWITKES: Either one.
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I believe it is
15
just over three thousand.
16
Mr. SWITKES: Over three thousand? How
17
about over approximately 10,000?
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Okay, 10,000.
19
MR. SWITKES: Well, would there be a
20
difference between an occupancy, in a safe
21
occupancy of a building if it was three thousand
22
square feet verses ten thousand square feet?
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I object. It's
24
irrelevant. (INAUDIBLE)
25
THE COURT: Mr. Switkes?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
12
1
MR. SWITKES: That's not true. If Your
2
Honor gives me some latitude, I'll go over some
3
of the Fire Life Safety Code issues specifically
4
referring to the square footage and allowable
5
use of the square footage regardless of the
6
occupant load. I would like not to
7
disclose that at this juncture, Your Honor.
8
THE COURT:
If you don't disclose it,
9
then I will sustain the objection.
10
MR. SWITKES: Well, pursuant to Florida
11
Statutes, specifically Section 8 of the 623.025,
12
8, prior to applying the minimum Fire Safety
13
Code in a building, there must be a finding --
14
That was his mike.
15
THE COURT: Okay.
16
MR. SWITKES: There must be a finding
17
specifically on what I am going to ask this
18
officer before I tell him what the law is, to
19
see if he knows law, and I would like that
20
latitude before I read it to your Honor.
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Your Honor, can I
22
clarify something?
23
MR. SWITKES:
I'd like you to answer the
24
question.
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: When he asked
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
13
1
about the total space, I was referring to the
2
occupants, what the occupants can occupy. Now
3
he is referring to the gross and the occupant
4
total space is three thousand nine hundred and
5
fifty square feet.
6
MR. SWITKES: Now did you make any
7
determinations that night as to whether or not
8
9
THE COURT: OK. My ruling stands. The
10
objection is sustained.
11
MR. SWITKES: Did you make any
12
determinations as to whether or not there are
13
any issues involved and how many people were
14
involved up stairs prior to issuing any
15
citation?
16
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
I went up the
17
stairs to see if they were overcrowded.
18
MR. SWITKES: Overcrowded pursuant to
19
the occupancy load listed by the City of Miami
20
Beach, is that correct?
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Correct.
22
MR. SWITKES: And you were not doing
23
that,based upon based upon square footage, you
24
were doing it based upon specifically occupancy
25
load in that structure on that day at that
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
14
1
time?
2
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Correct.
3
MR. SWITKES: But you realize that
4
there is much more space available. In fact
5
there has been an application for more than
6
doubling the amount of occupancy in that same
7
structure. Are you aware that?
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Objection. That is
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I'm not aware of
10
that.
I believe --
11
MR. GOLDSTEIN: That is completely
12
irrelevant, Your Honor.
13
THE COURT: Sustained.
14
MR. SWITKES: It's not irrelevant
15
pursuant to the section I read, Your Honor, and
16
I'm being forced to read it to you now.
17
I'm afraid this witness will mimic what
18
the statute says. But, specifically it says
19
that:
20
"Prior to applying the minimum Fire
21
Safety Codes in an existing building, the local
22
fire official shall determine that a threat to
23
life'safety or property exists. And then only
24
then shall he apply the operative fire safety
25
code for existing buildings to the extent
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
15
1
practical to assure a reasonable degree of life
2
safety."
3
In Essence, what the Fire Code says is
4
that if the structure is not in danger of being
5
overcrowded, despite whatever the Building Code
6
allows on that particular date, the issuance of
7
a citation would not be proper, pursuant to a
8
lot of other statutes that I will cite as we go
9
along.
10
So I know why he's trying to stop me
11
from going in this direction. But there has to
12
be a threshold finding by the officer first.
13
THE COURT: Mr. Switkes,
14
MR. SWITKES: Yes.
15
THE COURT: It appears that what you are
16
trying to do is you are trying to interpret the
17
law.
18
MR. SWITKES: I'm trying to what?
19
THE COURT: You're trying to interpret
20
the law.
21
MR. SWITKES: I'm trying to get this
22
witness to testify as to what he did as a
23
predicate to finding the violation, citing the
24
law and the Life Safety Code, which does not
25
hold specific numerical findings the same way
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
16
1
the city is applying them. That's exactly what
2
I'm trying to do, because that's what the law
3
lS.
4
THE COURT: Any response from the City?
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think that the
6
( INAUDIBLE)
7
If the Special Master will permit, I
8
would like him to respond.
9
MR. SWITKES: I want (INAUDIBLE) the
10
unauthorized practice of law
11
THE COURT: Well, he can't really
12
respond to the legal argument. All he can do is
13
attest to any factual information that might be
14
helpful to me to understand whether or not there
15
is a basis to a legal argument.
16
If that is the case, then I would be
17
more than happy to entertain it.
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Basically, Liquid
19
is being restricted because of their exits.
20
(INAUDIBLE) four hundred sixteen because
21
half the people have to exit down the front
22
stairway and half the people go out the rear
23
stai:l5case.
24
They have more space. In fact, we have
25
calculated what their occupant load would be if
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
17
1
they had the proper exiting and so far, we have
2
come up with five hundred fifty. So it wouldn't
3
double their occupants load. They would go from
4
four hundred sixteen to five hundred fifty.
5
MR. SWITKES: There are no plans before
6
the city of Miami Beach --
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Robin Hill
8
(phonetic) has not submitted any plans.
9
MR. SWITKES: But there has been a
10
meeting between your supervisors and,
11
specifically, putting in one exit would allow
12
them to increase the occupancy load to 800.
13
THE COURT: Would you have knowledge of
14
that meeting, Inspector?
15
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: That's incorrect.
16
THE COURT: Would you have knowledge of
17
that meeting?
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I do have
19
knowledge of that meeting, but Robin --
20
THE COURT: Well you can't testify to
21
something that you don't have knowledge of.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
(INAUDIBLE)
23
THE COURT: Sustained. The witness did
24
not have any knowledge of it, and we will not
25
allow Mr. Switkes to testify any further.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
18
1
Okay, keep on moving.
2
MR. SWITKES: I could do good if I could
3
just testify.
4
THE COURT: Yes.
5
(LAUGHTER)
6
MR. SWITKES: In the context of your
7
finding how many people were in there,
8
specifically how many people were in the
9
upstairs at the time you entered the lounge?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I would say over
11
six hundred.
12
MR. SWITKES: How many people did you
13
count?
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I counted seventy
15
as I walked in before I got to the dance floor.
16
MR. SWITKES: Now, show us where you
17
counted the seventy.
18
And, of course, you have notes to
19
commemorate what you did that night, right?
20
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, I don't have
21
notes.
22
MR. SWITKES: So you are telling the
23
Court that on 8/10/97, you remember there were
24
seventy people standing (INAUDIBLE)
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes, that's how I
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
19
1
based it. Because I remember the last court
2
date you had.
3
THE COURT: You said you remember the
4
what? The last --
5
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The last court
6
case that Mr. Switkes was at. He brought a lot
7
of issues before us.
8
THE COURT: Oh, okay.
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I recall that.
10
MR. SWITKES: That was on another bar,
11
but they are running from my interrogation --
12
(INAUDIBLE)
13
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Up the stairway
14
and coming this way (indicating)
15
MR. SWITKES: Why don't you hold this up
16
so the Judge can see where you are pointing to,
17
and I'll (INAUDIBLE)
18
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll hold it.
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Okay you enter the
20
staircase of this upstairs -- this area right
21
here, all the way out to here (indicating).
22
This area is mainly the dance floor. I counted
23
seventy.
24
THE COURT: You counted seventy people
25
in that little area?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
20
1
MR. SWITKES: That little on this
2
diagram comprises how much square footage so
3
that we have some reference for the Court?
4
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: About two hundred
5
sixty square feet.
6
THE COURT: Two hundred sixty out of the
7
three thousand, is that what you are saying?
8
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's
9
(INAUDIBLE) right.
10
MR. SWITKES: Now, this area is adjacent
11
to one of bars, isn't it?
12
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) Over
13
here lS the VIP area.
14
MR. SWITKES: That's the bar, isn't it?
15
It's a serving area. That's the bar.
16
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
17
MR. SWITKES: It's consistent with your
18
being frequent in these clubs only as a Fire
19
Code Inspector?
20
But it is your experience that people
21
tend to congregate near the bars at these clubs?
22
Wouldn't that be fair to say?
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes, I would say
24
so.
25
MR. SWITKES: So the fact that there is
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
21
1
a concentration of people in the area you just
2
indicated, is right adjacent to one of the two
3
bars on this floor, correct?
4
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Correct.
5
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And there is
6
another bar on this floor. Where is the other
7
bar?
8
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The other bar is
9
(INAUDIBLE) lounge is over here.
10
MR. SWITKES: Here it is. See it says
11
serving here? That's the bar.
12
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: There's a bar in
13
this private dance area -- there's another bar
14
they're not together. They're separate.
15
MR. SWITKES: Yes, because there is a
16
wall here.
17
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Right. There are
18
two separate bars.
19
MR. SWITKES: There's a bar here right
20
by the seventy people you say you saw. And this
21
is a separate wall, this line going diagonally
22
across the page where this separate private
23
dance area and the same bar, but with the wall
24
in between continues. But the gray areas are
25
the two serving bars. Correct?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
22
1
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Right.
2
MR. SWITKES: Actually, if you want to
3
continue, there are two separate bars -- I made
4
it easier for you. I colored them in.
5
Now does -- you have seventy people?
6
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Right.
7
MR. SWITKES: How many people on the
8
dance floor?
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I would say
10
approximately three hundred.
11
MR. SWITKES: How? I know you said
12
that. Now, tell me how you did that. You made
13
an approximation?
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I made an
15
approximation. It was like a (INAUDIBLE) you
16
couldn't move from this point until you got into
17
here (indicating).
18
MR. SWITKES: How did you come to this
19
approximation?
20
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, I looked at
21
-- I came up -- I had seventy here. And then I
22
looked at the large area that was totally packed
23
and I
24
MR. SWITKES: That's just an off the top
25
of your head approximation?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Right.
2
MR. SWITKES: You had no clickers?
3
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, they didn't
4
have clickers then.
5
MR. SWITKES: You had no head count?
6
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, they didn't
7
have a head count.
8
MR. SWITKES: You didn't have head
9
counts
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, I don't click.
11
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And you stayed in
12
that area adjacent to the first bar as you come
13
up there how long?
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I was there --
15
I looked in this room also (indicating).
16
This room was --
17
MR. SWITKES: You can't get in that way.
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes, you can.
19
MR. SWITKES: How did you get in there?
20
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: There's a door
21
right there. They don't show it, but there's a
22
door --
23
THE COURT: You're shaking your head,
24
whatever it means, indicating that he's right.
25
MR. SWITKES: You went in the back
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
24
1
private dance area?
2
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Right.
3
MR. SWITKES: How many people were In
4
there?
5
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I would say
6
approximately two hundred. I walked in a little
7
bit and I did a count.
8
MR. SWITKES: Two hundred?
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes, yes. It was
10
jammed packed. You didn't want to attempt to go
11
through it. It was jammed.
12
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
13
MR. SWITKES: Where else did you go?
14
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE) you
15
couldn't get through?
16
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, we took a
17
long time and usually get a big bouncer to get
18
in front of you to lead the way.
19
MR. SWITKES: So on this night you
20
remember getting a big bouncer to lead the way?
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
22
MR. SWITKES: And you got through the
23
danc~ floor
24
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Then we went
25
downstairs and checked the downstairs.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
25
1
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Okay. I spoke to
2
Mr. Shaffer (phonetic) and he wholeheartedly
3
agreed. He told me, "I'm overcrowded, I know
4
I'm overcrowded --"
5
MR. SWITKES: Objection. Move to
6
strike. Not responsive. I asked him where he
7
went.
8
THE COURT: Sustained.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. I went downstairs
10
and the downstairs was fine.
11
MR. SWITKES: Did you check with the
12
people at the front door to determine how many
13
people were in the club pursuant to --
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Theyweren't
15
clicking.
16
THE COURT: Wait a minute. What did you
17
say? They weren't clicking?
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: They didn't have
the clickers.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. SWITKES: Who is they?
18
19
20
21
22
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, Mr. Shaffer.
23
MR. SWITKES: Mr. Shaffer never has a
24
clicker. He's the manager.
25
(INAUDIBLE)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Clickers can't testify.
2
THE COURT: Sustained.
3
MR. SWITKES: It's a little late.
4
Let me ask you a question now. Did you
5
speak to Mauricio or Marcello?
6
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The only
7
individual I spoke to was Mr. Shaffer.
8
MR. SWITKES: So the two people that
9
were located at the door who keep records
10
(INAUDIBLE) .
11
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Objection (INAUDIBLE).
12
THE COURT: Let him finish the question,
13
Mr. Goldstein.
14
MR. SWITKES: The two people at the bar
15
that are located at the entrances and exits, you
16
didn't ask either of them how many people were
17
in the bar at the time?
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Objection. There is no
19
testimony --
20
THE COURT: Sustained.
21
MR. SWITKES: Did check or speak with
22
anybody (INAUDIBLE)?
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No.
24
MR. SWITKES: You didn't check to see if
25
there was anybody at the door?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
(INAUDIBLE) Is your experience
2
(INAUDIBLE) they do have people at the doors
3
checking I.D.'s (INAUDIBLE) Is it your
4
experience that those are the people, if anybody
5
has the ability to count the number of people
6
coming in and out the club, as opposed to the
7
general manager?
8
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: (INAUDIBLE)
9
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We'll let you
10
testify very soon.
11
MR. SWITKES: Now, you went from one end
12
of the club to the other end and then you went
13
down the stairwell?
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Correct.
15
MR. SWITKES: You went downstairs and
16
issued a citation?
17
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, we went
18
(INAUDIBLE) .
19
THE COURT: I can't hear you. That's
20
all right --
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I went downstairs
22
and I issued the citation.
23
THE COURT: Didn't you make another
24
comment? Did you say something else?
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, I
I can't
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
determine that they're overcrowded until I
2
actually go up into the club. But I (INAUDIBLE)
3
a count until I got into the club.
4
THE COURT: No, I thought you said
5
something that I didn't hear.
6
Okay. Thank you.
7
MR. SWITKES: Now, sir, in the context
8
of this structure would you say it's a mixed
9
occupancy use of that structure?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) .
11
MR. SWITKES: And you aware of the Life
12
Safety Codes criteria for determining whether an
13
overloading occurs, pursuant to a mixed
14
occupancy, pursuant to 4-1.11?
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Objection. (INAUDIBLE).
16
THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein (INAUDIBLE)
17
Please, please don't do this.
18
Allow -- if you have a valid objection,
19
state it. The witness needs to corroborate
20
before you just rush out and answer the
21
question. You may want to pause a moment to see
22
whether or not the attorney has a valid
23
objection.
24
It appeared -- and I'm not saying you
25
did it -- but it appeared as though you said
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
29
1
something to the witness outside of my ear,
2
outside the ear of Mr. Switkes.
3
So now that we know you didn't do that,
4
what is your objection?
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I apologize. All I said
6
is let me object.
7
THE COURT: Okay. You should have said
8
so aloud. Okay.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I object for the exact
10
reasons that you pointed out.
11
THE COURT: Okay.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: There lS an occupancy
13
restriction on this premises, pursuant to the
14
license that they have.
15
THE COURT: What is your objection?
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: My objection is that
17
this whole line of questioning is irrelevant and
18
inappropriate, and that this figure is cut in
19
stone. It says what it says. X amount of
20
people are permitted in this club. It doesn't
21
matter (INAUDIBLE) if there's a bar, if there's
22
a restaurant. It doesn't matter if Planet Ocean
23
is tnere. I mean, there is a set concrete
24
number of people allowed in this club. So
25
THE COURT: Your objection is overruled.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
I'm going to allow counsel a little leeway with
2
so I can figure out what's going on.
3
Thank you. Go right ahead.
4
MR. SWITKES: Did you determine that
5
this is a mixed use structure and whether or not
6
a change to the occupancy load would be
7
permitted under the Life Safety Code which is
8
adopted by the City of Miami Beach?
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) .
10
MR. SWITKES: How many people --
11
THE COURT: I have a question.
12
MR. SWITKES: Sure.
13
THE COURT: Do you have -- are you
14
qualified to make that determination? To
15
determine whether or not an occupant -- a
16
building is mixed use? Would that be within the
17
purview of your --
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) about
19
mixed use occupancies and dealing with --
20
THE COURT: Are you qualified to make
21
that determination?
22
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) .
23
THE COURT: Okay. Ready.
24
MR. SWITKES: Now, sir, in the context
25
of establishing even the criteria for how many
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
31
1
people would be allowed on that particular
2
evening, how many persons per square foot were
3
used to make that calculation?
4
How did you, to an understanding of how
5
many people could legally the on the property
6
premises that evening?
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The exits.
8
THE COURT: The what?
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The exits. The
10
exits restrict their occupancy.
11
THE COURT: Okay.
12
MR. SWITKES: But you have to make a
13
determination under the Life Safety Code as to
14
whether a threat to the life safety of the
15
public exists, correct?
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'll object to that.
17
THE COURT: Okay what is your basis for
18
the objection?
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The objection is that
20
there is a strict occupancy limitation and
21
that's the limit.
22
It doesn't matter if there are one
23
thousand people in there and it would be safe.
24
If the occupancy restriction is 416, then
25
that's what the code says and that's what
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
32
1
(INAUDIBLE) .
2
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, with all due
3
respect, the Code says that you can overload an
4
area temporarily. There are two bars and there
5
are two lounges--
6
THE COURT: Where does it say that?
7
MR. SWITKES: OK. I am going to go
8
through a few of the sections with you.
9
101-63
10
THE COURT: I don't have them in front
11
of me, so can you read it to me, please?
12
MR. SWITKES: I'm going to read a few
13
sections to you.
14
8-1.7 Occupant Load.
15
"The occupant load permitted in any
16
assembly, building, structure, or portion
17
thereof shall be determined on the basis of the
18
following occupant load factors:
19
"A. When that area--assembly area of
20
concentrated use with fixed seats, such as an
21
auditorium, place of worship, dance floor,
22
discotheque, or large hall, one person per 7 net
23
square feet.
24
"B. An assembly of less concentrated
25
use, such as a conference room, dining room,
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
33
1
drinking establishment, exhibit room, gymnasium
2
or lounge, one person per 15 square feet."
3
We have to make a determination as to
4
what the provocations are from this officer as
5
to the existing structure, and make a
6
determination as to where they're located if
7
they're moving up and down from two different
8
structures, it also says you can have an
9
overload temporarily in certain areas. For
10
instance, dance floors, and it would not be a
11
violation.
12
This is the criteria for him issuing the
13
citation.
14
THE COURT: Okay.
15
Your objection is overruled.
16
Let's keep on going.
17
MR. SWITKES: Now, sir
18
THE COURT:
If you want. If you think
19
it's relevant. I may need it the way things are
20
gOlng.
21
Can we just take a two-minute break
22
until (INAUDIBLE).
23
MR. SWITKES:
(INAUDIBLE) your page
24
number, Judge, 101-79 and I was reading from
25
THE COURT:
101-79?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
34
1
MR. SWITKES: The page number is on
2
the top right and left-hand corners will give
3
you the page numbers. You see that I was
4
reading from 101-63
5
THE COURT: Okay.
6
MR. SWITKES: -- the bottom left corner,
7
8-1.7.1.
8
THE COURT: 8-1.7.1.
9
MR. SWITKES: In the left-hand corner of
10
that page -- the left bottom.
11
THE COURT: Okay.
12
MR. SWITKES: And then I was gOlng to
13
cite to Your Honor the second page I gave you,
14
which is 101-79, on the bottom right corner of
15
that page, 9-
16
THE COURT: 101.79?
17
MR. SWITKES: 101-79 is the page.
18
THE COURT: Okay. 101-79
19
MR. SWITKES: And it's on the bottom
20
right-hand corner -- 9-1.7 Occupant Load,
21
specifically citing to 9-1.7.1
22
THE COURT: Okay.
23
MR. SWITKES: -- all the way through
24
9-1.7.2.
25
THE COURT: Okay.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
35
1
I have a question. What section that
2
you were reading from or alluded to, allows for
3
temporary -- allows for the temporary overload?
9
MR. SWITKES: That's on 101-80, 9.1. --
THE COURT: Page 101-80,
MR. SWITKES: 101-80
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SWITKES: 9-1.7.2.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. SWITKES: I hope I don't have to say
two more of these. These are tough.
THE COURT: Okay. You didn't actually
read verbatim from that section, is that right?
4
5
6
7
8
10
11
12
13
14
MR. SWITKES: I was getting -- I was on
15
the first section.
16
THE COURT: No, I mean, that's why I
17
have the book. I like to have the book in front
18
of me, because it gave me a different impression
19
than what I'm reading from.
20
Okay. Let's keep on going.
21
MR. SWITKES: It's tough to articulate
22
these
23
THE COURT: I understand. That's why
24
it's good for me to read it.
25
Okay. Does the City also have a book?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
36
1
Because we don't --
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I have an older edition.
3
THE COURT: Okay. Because he's
4
referring to the book.
5
MR. SWITKES: Read my notes.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I can't.
7
(INAUDIBLE) We can share.
8
Okay. Let's keep on going.
9
You were at the point where I had
10
overruled the objection to Mr. Switkes
11
proceeding to go through the language in the
12
book that would support the position that the
13
club is temporarily overloaded and that it would
14
be allowed.
15
I got that that was the impression you
16
were trying to prove.
17
Please continue.
18
MR. SWITKES: Now, slr, you said there
19
were how many people downstairs in the lounge?
20
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: It wasn't
21
overcrowded. A little over a hundred. It
22
wasn't
23
MR. SWITKES: Now, in the context of
24
people going from the downstairs lounge up to
25
the upstairs to dance for a particular song and
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
37
1
then returning to the downstairs, you certainly
2
weren't there long enough to be able to do that,
3
were you?
4
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:: I stayed -- was
5
there, but I didn't do that. I stayed out front
6
where the (INAUDIBLE).
7
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And in terms of
8
people moving around within the structure, there
9
is no question in your mind but that at times
10
people will move within the structure and
11
temporarily overload a particular area of the
12
structure, correct?
13
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) .
14
MS. SWITKES: And particularly a dance
15
floor. That would be a typical frame where
16
people would come from lounges -- I don't know
17
where (INAUDIBLE) to this -- but they would go
18
dance on the dance floor to a particular song
19
and then return to these various lounges within
20
the structure?
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE) .
22
MR. SWITKES: I have no further
23
questions.
24
THE COURT:
(INAUDIBLE) City.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you have a
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
38
1
conversation with the Manager of Club Liquid on
2
the night in question?
3
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
4
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Could you describe the
5
contents of that conversation?
6
MR. SWITKES: Objection. Hearsay.
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: It's an admission. It's
8
an employee and manager of the club.
9
We're not bound by the strict rules of
10
evidence as I understand it under these
11
proceedings.
12
THE COURT: True.
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: It's an admission
14
against them.
15
This guy lS an employee of theirs -- a
16
high level -- (INAUDIBLE)
17
THE COURT: Is the manager here?
18
MR. SWITKES: No.
19
THE COURT: Did the City call him as a
20
witness?
21
MR. SWITKES: No.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: We don't need to. It's
23
an admission against their interest and it's
24
also an admission that can be brought in against
25
them and it's not based upon under the evidence
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
39
1
code. It's not based upon his availability or
2
unavailability.
3
804 -- 90.804, is the Evidence Code and
4
there is the section that talks about
5
unavailability. This is not an unavailability
6
exception. Even if a person is available to
7
testify, since it's an admission against their
8
interest made by a high level -- the highest
9
level club employee, our guy can testify to
10
that.
11
THE COURT: Mr. Switkes?
12
MR. SWITKES: Judge, to have a city
13
employee testify to what happened months ago as
14
to a conversation when the witness is not here,
15
lS incredibly prejudicial.
16
I can make up conversations my clients
17
had with the City that would be prejudicial to
18
the City. I don't think that's proper.
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Let me go into that.
20
One, he hasn't addressed a legal
21
argument as far as it being an admission.
22
Two is, as far as "He is making it up,"
23
that~s an issue of credibility and not
24
admissibility.
25
THE COURT: What about the issue of
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
40
1
admissibility? What I mean is, (IN.n.UDIBLE)
2
MR. SWITKES: Admission by who?
3
THE COURT: If it's an admission, it
4
should be an exception under the hearsay rule.
5
MR. SWITKES: Except that the person is
6
not here and is not subpoenaed, and now they are
7
able to at their discretion say that my employee
8
said, and I don't even know who this person is
9
he's talking about.
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: We can tell him exactly
11
who it is. We said it's the manager. It's
12
clearly an admission. I still haven't heard an
13
argument, aside from
14
MR. SWITKES:
(INAUDIBLE) is not the
15
same person you are talking about.
16
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, once
17
THE COURT: Why don't we do this?
18
Why don't we allow it in, okay? Because
19
as you indicated before, we are not strictly
20
bound by the Rules of Evidence, and then Mr.
21
Switkes can have an ample opportunity to present
22
who witness who may have some contrary to say,
23
and 1 will listen to both.
24
Go right ahead. What did he say?
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Mr. Shaffer
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
41
1
wholeheartedly agreed that they were overcrowded
2
on that night.
3
THE COURT: Okay.
4
MR. SWITKES: And that's -- the trial
5
issue that he's testifying about, slipped in the
6
back door (INAUDIBLE).
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Judge, it's not slipped
8
in through a witness. It's slipped in through a
9
City employee who had a direct conversation with
10
an employee who made a damaging admission.
11
Their employee made a damaging admission and now
12
he's trying to weasel out of it and he has no
13
evidentiary basis to do so.
14
It may be the ultimate issue. There's
15
nothing wrong with my man testifying to an
16
ultimate issue.
17
MR. SWITKES: Even the fire inspectors
18
19
THE COURT: Okay -- I'm going to have to
20
go with Mr. Switkes on this. I can't allow this
21
in.
22
Mr. Switkes, your objection is
23
sustained. We'll strike that. It goes to the
24
heart of the issue.
25
Okay, keep on going.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
42
1
It's like it's tantamount to having a
2
witness say -- the witness' brother say, "Yes,
3
my brother told me he committed the murder," and
4
you find him guilty based on that.
5
Okay, let's keep on going.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Judge, I'd like to
7
address that.
8
This is probably --
9
THE COURT: I made my decision. Let's
10
keep on going.
11
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How many people did you
12
find in the lounge on the night in question?
13
MR. SWITKES: Objection.
(INAUDIBLE)
14
THE COURT: Just be more specific, Mr.
15
Goldstein.
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay.
17
How many people were in the private side
18
of the bar?
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: On the private
20
side, approximately two hundred.
21
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How many people were on
22
the dance floor?
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I would say
24
approximately three hundred.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And how many people were
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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1
at the bar where you entered?
2
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: (INAUDIBLE)
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You mentioned the lounge
4
before -- where is the lounge?
5
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The lounge is
6
downstairs. It's not on this plan. It's
7
downstairs --
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How many people were in
9
the lounge?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well over one
11
hundred.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You testified two
13
hundred in the side room, three hundred on the
14
dance floor, one hundred in the lounge and
15
seventy in one of the bars. That's six hundred
16
seventy people?
17
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The lounge is
18
( INAUDIBLE)
19
THE COURT: Okay. I just need to hear
20
what you all say to each other.
21
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. We're going to
22
drop the managers. I understand it's not --
23
THE COURT: Okay. What did he say to
24
you?
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: What he said to me lS
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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the lounge doesn't have anything to do with the
2
3
THE COURT: Okay. That's what I need to
4
hear.
(INAUDIBLE) It gives the appearance
5
-- and I want to hear, too.
6
So the lounge has nothing to do with
7
this violation? Is that what he said?
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: We have three hundred on
9
the dance floor, two hundred in the side room
10
and seventy in the bar, is that correct?
11
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: That's correct.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How about the remainder
13
of the club? Were there other parts in which
14
people were present?
15
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, there were
16
approximately one hundred people in this area
17
right here (indicating).
18
THE COURT: What area is that?
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The VIP. The VIP
20
area.
21
THE COURT: Is that a part of this
22
violation? You took those numbers into
23
consideration as part of the violations?
24
So you are talking about another one
25
hundred?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
2
THE COURT: Okay.
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: So, how many people
4
would you estimate -- let me back up.
5
What is the occupancy limitation on this
6
club?
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Four hundred
8
sixteen.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And what is the reason
10
there is a, if you know
11
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE)
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
(INAUDIBLE) ?
13
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: That's correct.
14
THE COURT: Now, the downstairs have a
15
different occupancy?
16
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes, it's a
17
separate -- it used to be a separate restaurant
18
and now they are trying to make it the same
19
club.
20
THE COURT: It there a (INAUDIBLE)
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: You have to -- you
22
go up the rear exit way to go up to that club.
23
There is a stairway in the back that they can go
24
up.
25
MR. SWITKES: (INAUDIBLE)what the
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
occupancy load it is for the downstairs?
2
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: About one hundred
3
eighty-nine.
4
THE COURT: Okay. Go right ahead.
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Why is there a four
6
hundred sixteen occupancy limit on the upstairs?
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: They have exiting
8
problems. Because they have a small staircase
9
in the front which limits them. They only have
10
two exits when they need three exits when they
11
go beyond five hundred.
12
They have submitted building plans now
13
to try to correct that problem
14
THE COURT: So, it's my understanding
15
that --
16
When you say there are two exits, do the
17
two exits lead directly to the outside?
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
19
THE COURT: Okay.
20
Now, in addition to the two exits that
21
lead directly to the outside, there is a
22
stairway that leads -- begins upstairs and to
23
the <downstairs?
24
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, it's that
25
second exit in the rear that joins the upstairs
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
with the downstairs.
2
You can leave the downstairs and go up
3
the rear stairway.
4
It used to be a separate lounge and they
5
happen to have the same exiting out back.
6
THE COURT: Okay.
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: It used to be a
8
separate restaurant. Liquid took over the
9
restaurant and now the people in the lounge can
10
freely flow up the rear staircase up to Liquid.
11
THE COURT: Okay. But my question is,
12
in that particular exit, is that exit -- to get
13
to the exit do you have to go downstairs?
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Correct.
15
THE COURT: There is no exit
there is
16
no door that would lead you from the second
17
floor directly to the outside of that location?
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Oh, yes. Yes,
19
there is a door coming in from the club that
20
gets into the staircase, and then there are a
21
bay of doors that leads you into the alley.
22
So if you were exiting out of the rear
23
of tme club downstairs, you would enter that
24
stairwell and you could go out into the alley.
25
The same thing upstairs. You could go out the
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(305) 944-9884
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1
stairway and you can go out the alley.
2
THE COURT: Okay. So you have,
3
basically, a stairwell inside and a stairwell
4
outside?
5
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, it's all
6
stairway inside.
7
THE COURT: All stairway inside?
8
Nothing goes --
9
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The main stairwell
10
is inside and it empties outside. It's enclosed
11
stairway and the doors empty into the outside.
12
THE COURT: You don't have -- there are
13
no stairways that lead from the second floor to
14
the outside directly with a staircase outside
15
the building?
16
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE)
17
THE COURT: I'm asking a question. I
18
don't know because I have never been there.
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Okay. You are
20
correct.
21
THE COURT: I don't know. I want him to
22
answer if he can --
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: It's a two-story
24
stairway, it's enclosed, it's got a bay of
25
doors, you open the doors to exit and you are in
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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the alley.
2
THE COURT: Okay. That's one exit.
3
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Right.
4
THE COURT: Okay. What about the other?
5
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Okay. Upstairs
6
they have an unenclosed stairway that you enter
7
through.
8
THE COURT: Unenclosed? That means it's
9
outside?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No, no. That
11
means it's not an enclosed stairway. It can be
12
contaminated. If they had smoke or something or
13
something happened in the stairway, it could
14
contaminate the club. It's an open stairway
15
into the club.
16
It's open. You come through some doors.
17
It's not an enclosed stairway. When you get to
18
the top you could walk right into the club.
19
There are no doors.
20
THE COURT: Okay.
21
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE)
22
THE COURT: Isn't there anybody from
23
I understand you (INAUDIBLE) I don't want
24
(INAUDIBLE) but you testified.
25
Is there anybody from the club that we
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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can refer to later, that maybe understands --
2
because I think this is very relevant to me
3
understanding what's going on.
4
How -- whether or not there is
5
whether or not someone who is upstairs
6
whether or not there is a constant flow up and
7
down, or whether or not, basically, those people
8
go upstairs tend to stay upstairs and those
9
people who go downstairs tend to stay downstairs
10
11
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, it's very
12
unusual to find the downstairs club overcrowded.
13
Most people like the upstairs.
14
THE COURT: So, theoretically speaking,
15
in your opinion, you are saying that most of the
16
people who go upstairs tend to stay upstairs
17
because of the activity and the nature of the
18
entertainment?
19
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
20
THE COURT: Okay. Let's keep on moving.
21
I'm sorry. Go right ahead.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: To the best of your
23
esti~ation, how many people were in the upstairs
24
part of Club Liquid on the night In question?
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Approximately six
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
hundred.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And the occupancy
3
limitation on the upstairs part is?
4
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Four hundred
5
sixteen.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you do any specific
7
headcount on people?
8
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: As I referred to
9
earlier, that in one area I counted
10
approximately seventy people.
11
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Is there any reason you
12
didn't do a further headcount?
13
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: No. It was so
14
jammed packed (PAUSE IN TAPE)
15
Okay, (INAUDIBLE) is seventy. The
16
occupant load is four sixteen. I look over to
17
the VIP and there are approximately one hundred
18
people over there.
19
The first place I went into is that
20
other room on the south side, and that place was
21
jammed packed and you couldn't --
22
THE COURT: When you say jammed packed,
23
are you saying?
24
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I mean, you can't
25
you can't move.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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THE COURT: If you are saying a room
2
that is ten feet long -- did you look at the
3
first three feet and say, "Oh, it's too packed
4
-- " or did you actually, physically see the
5
distance of the room?
6
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: (INAUDIBLE) the
7
whole distance and it was you couldn't move.
8
THE COURT: Go on to the larger area.
9
What did you do? How did you figure
say
10
there were three people in the lobby area?
11
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Because I
12
calculated that area that I came in which was
13
seventy and that wasn't that dense, and then
14
right in front of me, I've got this huge dance
15
floor that's packed.
16
THE COURT: Okay. And were you able to
17
see the distance of the dance floor?
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Because I walked
19
to the back exit.
20
THE COURT: Okay. Because initially you
21
gave the appearance from your testimony that you
22
didn't walk to the back, but that you based your
23
estimate on
24
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I didn't walk to
25
the back on the south club.
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1
THE COURT: Okay.
2
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: The main club, I
3
walked through the back and went down the
4
stairway.
5
THE COURT: But, even if you had not
6
walked to the back, would you have been able to
7
see, say six feet in front of you, that it was
8
still crowded or twenty feet in front of you
9
that it was still crowded?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I still could see,
11
yes.
12
THE COURT: You could see.
13
I don't know enough about the place to
14
know this. So it's your testimony that you
15
would have been able to see that even if you had
16
not walked all through the club?
17
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
18
THE COURT: Okay.
19
Mr. Goldstein?
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Judge, I would like to
21
make a proffer of evidence. I can do it through
22
this witness, or --
23
THE COURT: I would prefer you do it
24
through the witness.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
Who is William Shaffer?
2
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: He is the manager
3
of the club. That night, that evening, he was
4
the manager.
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And did you have a
6
conversation with him?
7
THE COURT: How is this different from
8
the other -- your earlier testimony? How is
9
that different?
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: It is absolutely not
11
different. I just want to preserve the record
12
for appeal. I just want to make a proffer
13
instead of having to reconvene this if the
14
Circuit Court reverses --
15
THE COURT: Okay.
16
You want to proffer for the purpose of
17
appeal what the witness would have said to you
18
-- what that witness -- what Mr. Shaffer would
19
have said to your witness?
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Exactly.
21
THE COURT: Go ahead.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Go ahead.
23
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Mr. Shaffer agreed
24
to me that the club was overcrowded.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: That's my proffer.
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13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
THE COURT: Didn't you get that in
2
earlier?
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think that was the
4
subject of that whole discussion on that
5
objection, and we believe there was an admission
6
by a party employee, and I believe Your Honor
7
overruled -- sustained I should say, Mr.
8
Switkes' objection.
9
THE COURT: Yes.
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: We don't have any
11
further evidence.
12
THE COURT: Okay. You mean you have no
13
further testimony from this witness.
14
Let's keep on going.
15
Thank you.
16
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, I would like
17
to call Mr. Marcello (INAUDIBLE) (phonetic),
18
please.
19
THE COURT: I would like to reserve the
20
right to recall that witness in the event I need
21
to.
22
No, you, I'm sorry, Mr. -- Lieutenant
23
Goldberg, if in the event I need some
24
clarification. So, please don't leave.
25
(Thereupon, Mr. Guillen called to
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1 testify.)
2
THE COURT: Okay. Yes, sir?
3
MR. SWITKES: How long have you been
4
employed by Liquid?
5
MR. GUILLEN: Approximately about a year
6
and ten months. It's going on to two years.
7
MR. SWITKES: And you job consists of
8
what?
9
MR. GUILLEN: I keep track of the
10
clickers and how many are exiting the club, and
11
I also keep a track of -- I consult with the
12
clicker boy or guy -- I see how many people are
13
actually in the club or approximately how many
14
and I give a guesstimate.
15
MR. SWITKES: Now, in the context of
16
this case, were you employed and working on the
17
evening of 8/10/97?
18
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, I was.
19
MR. SWITKES: And your job was the same
20
as you have described previously?
21
25
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
MR. SWITKES: Do you keep any logs as to
the pumber of people that are comlng into the
club on any particular day?
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, I do.
22
23
24
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13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. SWITKES: Do you have the log with
2
you?
3
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
4
MR. SWITKES: Can I have this marked as
5
Appellant's Exhibit Number One?
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'd like to see what it
7
says.
8
THE COURT: It has not been admitted at
9
this point in time.
10
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
11
MR. SWITKES: Can you identify what has
12
been now marked as Appellant's Exhibit Number
13
One?
14
MR. GUILLEN: It's the log that I keep
15
every night and at the end of the night, it
16
let's me know how many people are in the club
17
18
MR. SWITKES: And where on this is --
19
MR. GUILLEN: -- and how many comps we
20
used, how many reduced tickets we used, and it's
21
just to keep track of making sure that the banks
22
even out and everything.
23
THE COURT: Okay.
24
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can he speak up?
25
MR. GUILLEN: Oh, I'm sorry.
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13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
MR. SWITKES: That's why I keep going
2
like this (indicating). Speak into the mike.
3
Now, on this exhibit that is marked for
4
I.D. purposes, can you tell me where it tells
5
you how many people came into the club that
6
evening?
7
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, it does.
8
MR. SWITKES: Where?
9
MR. GUILLEN: It states Clicker Number
10
Two.
11
MR. SWITKES: And next to Clicker Number
12
Two, what is the number?
13
MR. GUILLEN: Eight hundred and fifty-
14
two.
15
MR. SWITKES: What does eight hundred
16
and fifty-two represent?
17
MR. GUILLEN: It's the number of people
18
that entered the club up until we closed the
19
club.
20
MR. SWITKES: What time does the club
21
open?
22
MR. GUILLEN: Eleven o'clock.
23
MR. SWITKES: What time does the club
24
close? Tell the truth now.
25
MR. GUILLEN: Five o'clock.
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13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
MR. SWITKES: Five o'clock. Not later
2
than five o'clock?
3
And in regard to the total number of
4
people on Clicker Number Two, the number next to
5
that would represent all evening?
6
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
7
MR. SWITKES: How do you compute how
8
many people are in the club at anyone time?
9
MR. GUILLEN: During the night, we have
10
a clicker -- a guy holds a clicker for when
11
people pay upon coming in the club, and I hold
12
another clicker.
(INAUDIBLE) two clickers. One
13
at the entrance as people are coming in and I
14
keep another clicker for people exiting and
15
(INAUDIBLE) at how many -- and when we get to
16
SlX hundred
17
(INAUDIBLE) it's to track how many
18
people are exiting and that's how many people we
19
allow back in. People are trying to get in, do
20
you know what I am saying?
21
MR. SWITKES: Is there any way for you
22
to
23
THE COURT: Wait a minute.
24
You said something -- you said when you
25
get to six hundred -- you stop letting people
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
in?
2
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
3
MR. SWITKES: And that includes both
4
clubs, downstairs and upstairs?
5
MR. GUILLEN: That's true, yes, sir.
6
MR. SWITKES: Do you periodically walk
7
through the club to determine how many people
8
are downstairs and how many people are upstairs?
9
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
10
MR. SWITKES: Do you have communications
11
with the manager on duty that evening as to the
12
amount of people?
13
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, sir.
14
MR. SWITKES: And what are your
15
instructions when you see that you have reached
16
the maximum for the amount of people in either
17
area, upstairs or downstairs?
18
MR. GUILLEN: To freeze the door.
19
MR. SWITKES: At anyone particular
20
time, are there people waiting outside the club
21
in lines?
22
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
23
MR. SWITKES: And can you guesstimate
24
how many people are usually there on a Saturday
25
night?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
MR. GUILLEN: Outside? A lot.
2
Well, we hold them back. We freeze the
3
door, so it mounts up.
4
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And would you
5
guesstimate how many people were there that
6
evenlng -- outside?
7
MR. GUILLEN: Uh--
8
MR. SWITKES: Are we talking about ten
9
people, or are we talking about hundreds?
10
MR. GUILLEN: Hundreds.
11
MR. SWITKES: Now in the context of the
12
evening in question at approximately
13
THE COURT: You had hundreds of people
14
waiting outside to pay to get in?
15
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
16
We close the door. We don't let anybody
17
else back in so it just builds up and builds up.
18
As many people as are walking out, that's how
19
many we are letting in. So if two people walk
20
out, we let two in. If ten people walk out, we
21
let ten in.
22
MR. SWITKES: How many security people
23
are on staff on a Saturday evening?
24
MR. GUILLEN: I'm sorry, I can't -- over
25
twenty I would imagine.
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13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
MR. SWITKES: Now, you asked me a
2
question -- let me ask you a question.
3
At 2:40 in the morning on 8/10/97, can
4
you testify specifically to how many people were
5
in the club at that exact time?
6
MR. GUILLEN: Well, not specifically,
7
but it was a lot. It wasn't over six hundred.
8
MR. SWITKES: And you are including both
9
the upstairs and the downstairs?
10
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, sir.
11
MR. SWITKES: And the reason you can't
12
say exactly lS --
13
MR. GUILLEN: I didn't do a headcount.
14
I didn't go around counting everybody.
15
MR. SWITKES: But you would know by
16
looking at your clicker minus the other person's
17
clicker, that they weren't over the legal
18
amount?
19
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I object. Mr.
20
Switkes is leading the witness.
21
THE COURT: Sustained.
22
MR. SWITKES: At anyone particular
23
timeA would you be able to tell how many people
24
were in the club, the maximum amount?
25
MR. GUILLEN: By what the clickers say,
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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63
1
that's how I would know about how many people
2
are In the club.
3
MR. SWITKES: And does this document
4
accurately reflect what transpired on Saturday,
5
August 10, 1997?
6
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
7
MR. SWITKES: I'd like to move this into
8
evidence.
9
THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, do you have
10
any objection?
11
Do you want to take a moment to look at
12
it?
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes.
14
I would object based upon the fact that
15
he has testified that at the moment in question,
16
he could not tell exactly how many people were
17
In the club. This is a log for the evening and
18
it has nothing to do with the exact time that
19
the citation was issued.
20
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, this is a log
21
and I believe the criteria for admissibility of
22
evidence is based upon whether or not this would
23
educ~te the tryor of fact as to what transpired.
24
I'm not saying that at particularly 2:40 in the
25
morning on 8/10/97 there were eight hundred and
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
64
1
fifty-two people.
2
But I will have other witnesses testify
3
that this is the maximum amount that were in the
4
club the total time the club was open, which
5
would bear upon the critical issue as to how
6
many people were In the club at anyone
7
particular time.
8
He has testified about the issue about
9
the evening and the time and question, saying
10
they weren't over the amount.
11
THE COURT: Okay.
12
Mr. Goldstein, are you saYlng that if I
13
looked at it I might be a little confused or
14
biased by looking at this?
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Judge, I think you
16
probably would not be as confused as I am. I
17
don't think so. I don't think it would cause
18
you any confusion, I just question the relevancy
19
of it as to the time period.
20
THE COURT: May I see it?
21
Well, what is the purpose of this being
22
admitted, Mr. Switkes?
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Judge, I withdraw my
24
objection. You can
25
THE COURT: I want to know what -- I
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
65
1
just want you to tell me what is the purpose
2
again.
3
MR. SWITKES: That is the total number
4
of people in the club from the hours of 11:00
5
p.m. to 5:00 a.m., the total being eight hundred
6
and forty-two. We will have other witnesses
7
testify as to the regularity with which the
8
people come in and out of the club and how that
9
number would bear upon how many people were in
10
the club at 2:40, being that there was no way it
11
was overcrowded, because that's a very small
12
number in the summer months. These people come
13
and go, and typically they club hop, and they
14
don't stay in one club the entire evening.
15
THE COURT: Okay. And what about the
16
closing argument from you?
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Like I said, I withdraw
18
my objection to the admission of this exhibit.
19
THE COURT: Well, let the -- Okay. You
20
have no objection to it?
21
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't think it's worth
22
much, but I'm not going to object to its
23
admission.
24
(LAUGHTER)
25
THE COURT: So admit it. It's Exhibit
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
66
1
One, am I correct?
2
Let me hold on to it.
3
MR. SWITKES: I have no further
4
questions for this witness.
5
THE COURT: You have no further
6
questions?
7
Do you want to use this, Mr. Goldstein?
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: No.
9
I'd like to cross-examine the witness
10
now.
11
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The counter that you use,
13
what does that do, count patrons entering the
14
club?
15
MR. GUILLEN: We have two counters.
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Tell me what the two
17
counters do.
18
MR. GUILLEN: Well, one of the counters
19
is right by the register at the entrance, and
20
the other one I hold.
21
THE COURT: Is a counter the same as a
22
clicker?
23
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, Your Honor.
24
THE COURT: Is there any reason why
25
there is only one information (INAUDIBLE)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
67
1
You may want to use this.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
I only notice on there
3
that there is one clicker. Is there a sheet for
4
the second clicker?
5
MR. GUILLEN: Yes. As you can see it
6
says, "Back door entry, first front door entry".
7
Clicker Number One would be back door
8
entry and on Saturday night we don't open the
9
back door entry like for (INAUDIBLE) Pussy Cat
10
Night.
11
THE COURT: For what night?
12
MR. GUILLEN: For Monday night, we open
13
two entrances. That's why it states here, "Back
14
door entry and front door entry".
15
So we only had one front door entry
16
open. So we only needed one clicker.
17
THE COURT: So you actually only had one
18
clicker being used on that night?
19
MR. GUILLEN: No, no. That's what at
20
the end of the night the clicker says. But
21
throughout the night we had -- it's hard to
22
explain.
23
It's like two clickers, one for entry
24
and one for exits.
25
THE COURT: One clicker for each or one
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
clicker per exit, but on that form it's somewhat
2
misleading because it has Clicker One, which is
3
blank and Clicker Two?
4
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
5
THE COURT: Okay.
6
MR. GUILLEN: Do you understand me?
7
THE COURT: Well, I think the form is
8
misleading and it doesn't really help me. But,
9
I will take it into consideration, given my
10
understanding of what's being said.
11
Keep on going, please.
12
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Are there two
13
entrances, one for the lower club and one for
14
the upper club?
15
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And how do you use this
17
clicker to record who goes into both the clubs?
18
MR. GUILLEN: Everyone who enters.
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: There is only one once
20
entrance to this building?
21
MR. GUILLEN: Two entrances, one in the
22
alley and one in the front.
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Where are you situated
24
with the clicker?
25
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
69
1
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE).
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I thought you just said
3
you were with the clicker at the entrance.
4
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE) the front door.
5
So that's what I mean by the front. But I mean,
6
I don't have the first clicker, he does. I hold
7
the exit clicker.
8
THE COURT: Is the entrance and the exit
9
the same?
10
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
11
MR. GOLDSTEIN: What I'm trying to say
12
lS aren't there two separate entrances to this
13
club?
14
MR. GUILLEN: The lounge and Liquid.
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Where would the person
16
with the entrance clicker be located, at the
17
lounge or Liquid?
18
MR. GUILLEN: Liquid.
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The people going into
20
the lounge wouldn't be recorded by the clicker,
21
isn't that true?
22
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
23
THE COURT: I can't hear you.
24
MR. GUILLEN: Everyone enters through
25
Liquid, if they want to go into the lounge, they
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
go into the lounge.
2
The way the door is set up is that we
3
have stanchions, barricades and ropes.
4
THE COURT: So the only way -- there is
5
only one entrance to both Liquid, as well as the
6
lounge?
9
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
THE COURT: You seem like you're in
doubt.
MR. GUILLEN: First
MR. SWITKES: Can I show you on the map
and clear this up for everybody?
7
8
10
11
12
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'd like him to try to
14
clear this up.
15
THE COURT: Yes -- he's your witness.
16
I'd like him to try and answer it.
17
MR. GUILLEN: Okay.
18
THE COURT: And I'm -- if you don't
19
mind, I'm going to come down and take a close
20
look.
21
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
22
THE COURT: I need to go that way?
23
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE) come
24
over here --
25
THE COURT: No -- okay -- you were going
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
to explain something.
2
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE) Here's the
3
elevator.
4
Okay. This is the entrance into the
5
club (indicating).
6
THE COURT: And that's where you would
7
be situated?
8
MR. GUILLEN: No, I'm over here
9
(indicating) .
10
THE COURT: Okay.
11
MR. GUILLEN: Right here on this side.
12
Like this (indicating).
13
THE COURT: The door is right there?
14
MR. GUILLEN: Uh huh. Then we have two
15
barricades -- going off kind of like where this
16
line is going. People are walking in this way
17
(indicating) .
18
THE COURT: Okay. But you are over
19
here?
20
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, right here, but I can
21
22
THE COURT: You can see?
23
MR. GUILLEN: Yes--
24
MR. SWITKES:
(INAUDIBLE) another
25
entrance if you --
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, over here by the
2
lounge on this side (indicating).
3
THE COURT: There is another entrance at
4
that location?
5
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
6
THE COURT: And would you be able to see
7
them also?
8
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, from right here.
9
MR. SWITKES: You did not have this door
10
open on that night?
11
MR. GUILLEN: No. That's why it's not
12
listed on the clicker and Number One here on
13
this sheet right here.
14
MR. SWITKES: So just --
15
MR. GUILLEN: As you enter, this is this
16
side, because we're not open, nothing is filled
17
out on this day. On Monday, there are two --
18
THE COURT: Yes, I'm listening -- you
19
may continue.
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: So your testimony is
21
that there were eight hundred fifty-two people
22
in the club this night, is that correct?
23
MR. GUILLEN: That's what the clicker
24
said.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Now, isn't it true that
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
73
1
security guards --
2
How many security guards are there,
3
twenty, you said?
4
MR. GUILLEN: I'm not the manager, I
5
just the (INAUDIBLE).
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You are able to observe,
7
right?
8
MR. GUILLEN: Inside the club?
9
THE COURT: You don't know the answer?
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
THE COURT: If you don't know, you don't
know.
MR. GUILLEN: I don't -- (INAUDIBLE)
THE COURT: Wait a minute. What did you
say, Mr. Goldstein?
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I believe he has
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
testified to twenty or over twenty. That's why
18
I just wanted to clarify that.
19
THE COURT: Is that what you said?
20
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE) more than two,
21
more than three more than twenty --
22
THE COURT: So, it's twenty?
23
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
24
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How many bartenders are
25
in this club?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
74
1
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
2
MR. GUILLEN: This Saturday night?
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Saturday nights. This
4
Saturday night if you can be specific.
5
otherwise, just generally on a Saturday night.
6
MR. GUILLEN: About twelve.
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: So you have twenty or so
8
security guards and twelve bartenders. How many
9
servers?
10
MR. GUILLEN: Servers? Cocktail
11
waitresses?
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes.
13
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE).
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Any other club
15
employees?
16
MR. GUILLEN: Security at the front
17
door.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: These people aren't
19
counted by the clicker, are they?
MR. GUILLEN: They're not patrons.
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Answer my question,
please.
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
THE COURT: How many other employees did
20
21
22
23
24
25
you say?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
75
5
MR. GUILLEN: Me, Leslie and Mauricio.
THE COURT: So it lS four?
MR. GUILLEN: Three and yes
THE COURT: Three?
MR. GUILLEN: Three without me.
1
2
3
4
6
THE COURT: Four?
7
MR. GUILLEN: Uh-huh.
8
THE COURT: Okay.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: So aside from patrons,
10
would it be fair to say that the total with
11
security, bartenders, servers and doormen, that
12
that's an additional fifty people that aren't
13
counted by your clicker?
14
MR. GUILLEN: I'm not inside the club.
15
I'm outside the club by what I count.
16
THE COURT: So you don't know the
17
answer?
18
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you just testify
20
that you saw twenty security people,
21
approximately?
22
MR. GUILLEN: I would imagine --
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You've got four
24
bartenders, four door people --
25
I apologize. My math is a little off.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
It's closer to (INAUDIBLE), is that correct?
2
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And those people, not
4
counting (INAUDIBLE)
5
MR. GUILLEN: The staff was not counted.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You said that your
7
clicker determines how many people enter this
8
club, isn't that correct?
9
MR. GUILLEN: The one he has.
THE COURT: The one he holds?
MR. GUILLEN: He holds. On the way in
people paying -- people coming into the club
MR. SWITKES: He's the exit man.
10
11
12
13
14
THE COURT: Okay.
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm a bit confused. I
16
thought that you minded the entrance and that
17
you and that you said eight hundred fifty-two
18
patrons.
19
MR. GUILLEN: At the end of the night.
20
THE COURT: That's contrary to what you
21
testified to earlier. You indicated earlier
22
that you were the person that gave a count as to
23
how many people entered. That's the impression
24
I gained.
25
MR. GUILLEN: I said he --
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
THE COURT: Well, that's why you are
2
clarifying. That's the impression I had
3
earlier.
4
MR. GUILLEN: I click people exiting.
5
He clicks people coming in.
6
THE COURT: So really, you cannot
7
testify as to the number on that count of people
8
who entered, only those who exited?
9
MR. GUILLEN: That's what I refer to
10
periodically and that's how I count
11
THE COURT: So anything -- any
12
information you have as to the number of persons
13
who entered would be hearsay information that
14
you received from this other person, am I
15
correct?
16
MR. GUILLEN: I don't know. I don't
17
understand.
18
THE COURT: It would be information that
19
someone told you.
20
MR. GUILLEN: No, I have the clicker.
21
THE COURT: You officially read the
22
clicker for the number of persons entering?
23
MR. GUILLEN: Exiting. And I subtract
24
it from his number when I'm
25
THE COURT: Did you
my question is
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
78
5
how did you find out or determine the number of
persons who entered the premises? How?
MR. GUILLEN: I looked at his clicker.
THE COURT: Okay. You physically look
at his clicker?
1
2
3
4
6
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
7
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The figure of eight
9
hundred fifty-two has nothing to do with the
10
individuals who are entering the club.
11
MR. GUILLEN: That's the amount of
people that are --
THE COURT: Well, he can answer it.
MR. GUILLEN: What was the question?
THE COURT: Make sure you understand it,
Slr.
12
13
14
15
16
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I understood that this
18
eight hundred fifty-two figure by you sitting at
19
the entrance where you told the Judge
20
MR. GUILLEN: I collect all the clickers
21
at the end of the night and I determine
22
THE COURT: Okay. You're like the
23
clic~er person -- manager?
24
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
25
THE COURT: Okay.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. GOLDSTEIN: So this figure, this
2
eight hundred fifty-two does not represent your
3
sitting at the entrance and clicking as each
4
person walks in, is that correct?
5
MR. GUILLEN: No.
6
THE COURT: Okay. I think I understand.
7
Thank you.
8
MR. GUILLEN: Do you understand?
9
THE COURT: You allowed -- in essence,
10
you relied on one others did -- make sure they
11
did their job?
12
MR. GUILLEN: Uh huh.
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Is there a clicker
14
On this club there are two floors, isn't
15
that correct?
16
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And there are stairways
18
-- a staircase that leads to the second floor.
19
Where is the entrance man situated as far as the
20
-- the one who clicks people in? Where is he
21
situated? Where is --
22
MR. GUILLEN: Right in this part
23
( indicating) .
24
MR. GOLDSTEIN: At the entrance, right?
25
MR. GUILLEN: Right by the cashier
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
80
1
booth.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: There are no figures
3
there are no clickers that would tell us how
4
many people of these people who entered the club
5
went upstairs or downstairs, are there?
6
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE).
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Do you have a separate
8
clicker that would tell you how many people who
9
entered the club went upstairs and how many went
10
downstairs?
11
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE) everyone that
12
goes through that first clicker.
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: But you can't tell --
14
after everyone goes through the first clicker,
15
you can't tell how many of those people go
16
upstairs and how many go down, isn't that
17
correct?
18
MR. GUILLEN: No. Because they could
19
have gone up through the back -- the back
20
entrance -- the back staircase. So I don't know
21
how many people are flowing throughout the club.
22
THE COURT: So theoretically speaking,
23
all ~ix hundred people could have all gone
24
upstairs or all could have gone downstairs?
25
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE) everybody goes
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
81
1
upstairs.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Which area is more
3
crowded, the downstairs or the upstairs?
4
MR. GUILLEN: I would say outside.
5
THE COURT: Given the two choices, which
6
would be the most, in your opinion?
7
MR. GUILLEN: The upstairs.
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I believe you testified
9
you report to a club manager if there is
10
overcrowding, is that true?
11
MR. GUILLEN: Yes. We do have a areas
12
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Who is William Shaffer?
14
MR. GUILLEN: He's one of the managers.
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Would he be a person you
16
would report to if there is overcrowding?
17
MR. GUILLEN: If he's the manager on
18
duty, yes. Whoever is on duty.
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Was he the manager on
20
duty on the night in question here?
21
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, he was.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't have any other
23
questions for this witness.
24
THE COURT: I have a question.
25
At any point in time during that evening
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
82
1
did you report to Mr. Shaffer that it was
2
overcrowded?
3
MR. GUILLEN: Once we reach six hundred
4
-- he does let me know when we get to this
5
number.
6
THE COURT: At any point in time did you
7
report -- at least on one occasion?
8
MR. GUILLEN: On more than one occasion.
9
THE COURT: More than one occasion you
10
reported that it was overcrowded?
11
MR. GUILLEN: That's how he says to hold
12
the door, freeze the door or that there are too
13
many people.
14
THE COURT: Did you see -- I notice also
15
on that -- let me see it, let me see that
16
exhibit, please. I have a couple of questions.
17
On this exhibit, it said here -- and
18
this is your writing?
19
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
20
THE COURT: It said here, "Average
21
night. No problems except the five fire
22
marshalls." What does that mean?
23
MR. GUILLEN: That means they gave us a
24
ticket.
25
THE COURT: Were there five at one time?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
83
1
MR. GUILLEN: Excuse me?
2
THE COURT: Were there five fire
3
marshalls -- "..except for five fire marshalls
4
II
6
MR. GUILLEN: I didn't say five.
THE COURT: Oh, fire?
MR. GUILLEN: Fire marshalls.
THE COURT: Okay. It looks like five.
MR. SWITKES: It looked like it to me
too, Judge.
THE COURT: So, it's one fire marshall
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
that visited that evening?
13
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE) have
14
any (INAUDIBLE)
15
THE COURT: And what does reduced use
16
mean on this piece of paper? What does reduced
17
use mean?
18
MR. GUILLEN: That's somebody with
19
reduced tickets if we give people a reduction.
20
If someone is a local, we don't make them pay
21
full cover. They are comp tickets. It's like
22
you can get in without paying.
23
THE COURT: What does comp used mean?
24
MR. GUILLEN: That means people can come
25
In that didn't have to pay. They are camp
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
84
1
tickets, complimentarily issued.
2
THE COURT: Okay. And are those tickets
3
included in the eight hundred fifty-two?
4
MR. GUILLEN: Yes. That's how they
5
subtract that number into how many people paid.
6
THE COURT: Now, has there ever been an
7
occasion when people just come in free, like for
8
instance, they are not included in this but they
9
might know somebody in the back that would open
10
the back door for them?
11
MR. GUILLEN: No.
12
THE COURT: No? That never happens?
13
MR. GUILLEN: The back door was not open
14
on that night.
15
THE COURT: Is it locked?
16
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
17
THE COURT: Who has a key?
18
MR. GUILLEN: Who has a key?
19
THE COURT: Yes. Is it locked?
20
MR. GUILLEN: It's not locked. It's
21
like --
22
THE COURT: I'm asking a question. I
23
wantlto know if I worked there
24
MR. GUILLEN: It's not open as an
25
entrance --
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
THE COURT: -- and my friend girl comes
2
in and she brings in her two pals and I say,
3
"Well, you don't have to pay, come on I'll let
4
you in through the back door". Does that ever
5
happen?
6
MR. GUILLEN: No.
7
THE COURT: That never happens?
8
MR. GUILLEN: That's where the security
9
is hiding making sure nobody
10
THE COURT: So there is always security
11
at that door to preclude that possibility?
12
MR. GUILLEN: On Saturday, yes.
13
On Monday we do open the back door and
14
use it as an entrance.
15
THE COURT: Now, is that back door used
16
as an exit?
17
MR. GUILLEN: If it needs to, yes.
18
THE COURT: I mean, was it used that
19
evenlng as an exit?
20
MR. GUILLEN: No.
21
THE COURT: No.
22
Is there security at that door?
23
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, just to make sure
24
nobody tries to sneak in or something.
25
THE COURT: Thank you.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Your Honor, I just have
2
a couple of follow-up questions after what you
3
asked.
4
THE COURT: Go ahead.
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Your testimony was that
6
you remained at the exit with this clicker,
7
isn't that correct?
8
MR. GUILLEN: Which clicker? With just
9
a clicker that says how many people are exiting?
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes.
11
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You were there and you
13
could see everybody exit, right? (INAUDIBLE)
14
all night, because if somebody exited, you would
15
want to know that because you would want to
16
click for them, right?
17
MR. GUILLEN: After we get to a certain
18
number, yes.
19
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Do you ever leave that
20
area or on the night in question, did you ever
21
leave that exit area?
22
MR. GUILLEN: Maybe to take a little --
23
to Uqe the restroom.
24
MR. GOLDSTEIN: A bathroom break?
25
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And people could have
2
left during the bathroom break, isn't that
3
correct?
4
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Aside from the bathroom
6
break, did you leave that night
7
MR. GUILLEN: My job is to stay down
8
there and make sure --
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Isn't it true you can't
10
see the whole club from the exit? (INAUDIBLE)
11
MR. GUILLEN: Like periodically -- like
12
I can't really quite see how many -- just to
13
kind of have a guesstimate of how many --
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Aren't you afraid people
15
are going to exit and you will miss your count?
16
MR. GUILLEN: No, we do have a bouncer
17
outside as well.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The bouncer also uses a
19
clicker?
20
MR. GUILLEN: No, I use the clicker. If
21
I go upstairs, I leave it to the bouncer that's
22
there -- I go upstairs to keep a track and see
23
how ~any are inside, and then I come back
24
downstairs and get my clicker back.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you do that on the
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
night in question?
2
MR. GUILLEN: Yes, five times.
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you go upstairs and
4
check how many people were downstairs or
5
upstairs?
6
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: When you did that, you
8
left the exit and your clicker to the bouncer to
9
use --
10
MR. GUILLEN: As long as the clicker
11
stays at the exit, there is always somebody
12
keeping track of how many people are exiting
13
after we get to a certain number.
14
THE COURT: So in essence, you relied
15
upon other people doing your job to come to this
16
total. You do.
17
MR. GUILLEN: I don't understand. Well,
18
-- if I go to the bathroom, somebody has to
19
stay. It's just like if the cashier has to go
20
to the bathroom, they need
Do you know what I am saying?
THE COURT: What I'm saying is to --
because other people use the clicker for the
entrance to know who is coming in, in essence
you have to rely on the fact that others are
21
22
23
24
25
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
doing their job.
2
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
3
THE COURT: Okay. Then there is no
4
reason to assume that they wouldn't do it -- do
5
their job?
6
MR. GUILLEN: No.
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How do you determine how
8
many people -- if you look -- how do you
9
determine how many people are upstairs? Do you
10
use any formula?
11
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE) took a
12
headcount -- it's basically a guesstimate. I
13
mean, I don't go --
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Just like my fire
15
inspector. Could we agree on that?
16
THE COURT: I don't know if I would want
17
to put your fire inspector on the same level
18
with the clicker person. I would assume he
19
would be a little bit more trained than the
20
clicker person.
21
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I agree.
22
THE COURT: I would not use that
23
analGgy.
24
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay.
25
THE COURT: It is not in your best
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
interest to say that.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. It's not in our
3
best interest.
4
The clicker says that there are eight
5
hundred fifty people who exited the club that
6
evening, isn't that true?
7
MR. GUILLEN: My clicker says that eight
8
hundred fifty-two people entered the club up
9
until we closed at the end of the night. That's
10
how many people were in the club, total.
11
THE COURT: Okay, who came through the
12
door.
13
MR. GUILLEN: That came through the door
14
15
THE COURT: Regardless of who may have
16
left, but eight hundred came?
17
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
18
THE COURT: Okay.
19
MR. GUILLEN: Eight hundred fifty-two.
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Eight hundred fifty-two
21
people, plus twenty for security, twelve
22
bartenders a number of servers. Do you figure
23
close to eight hundred ninety-nine, nine hundred
24
people, is that correct?
25
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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MR. GOLDSTEIN: What is the occupancy
2
limitation of the upstairs?
3
MR. GUILLEN: Four hundred seventeen, I
4
think. No (INAUDIBLE)
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: At 2:40 in the morning,
6
do you know if there were more than four hundred
7
seventeen people upstairs?
8
MR. GUILLEN: At 2:40 In the morning?
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, on the night in
10
question.
11
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
12
THE COURT: Do you know the answer?
13
MR. GUILLEN: Yes. I would imagine I go
14
by my clicker -- people that have entered the
15
club.
16
THE COURT: What was the answer to that
17
question?
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I would imagine yes.
19
THE COURT: He said yes? Okay.
20
MR. GUILLEN: I look at the clicker of
21
how many people have come in.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: But the clicker doesn't
23
tell1You how many went downstairs and how many
24
went upstairs, does it?
25
MR. GUILLEN: Not really.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. I don't have any
2
further questions.
3
THE COURT: Thank you.
4
Now, I just have one final question.
5
On that Exhibit One, does it give a
6
count of the number who exited?
7
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No.
8
THE COURT: No. Okay. Thank you.
9
MR. SWITKES: Just so we clarify what
10
you just went over
11
THE COURT: Please. You can have -- you
12
can do cross -- redirect.
13
MR. SWITKES: In regard to the amount of
14
people in the club at anyone time, would you
15
make sure that it didn't exceed the limits
16
posted in this building?
17
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
18
MR. SWITKES: In terms of exactly at
19
2:40 knowing whether there were four hundred
20
sixteen people or four hundred seventeen people,
21
would you be able to testify exactly?
22
MR. GUILLEN: No.
23
MR. SWITKES: Do you know if there is
24
anybody that can, including the Fire Inspector?
25
MR. GUILLEN: No.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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(305) 944-9884
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MR. SWITKES: No further questions.
2
THE COURT: I have a question.
3
Is it your job to make sure it doesn't
4
go over the limit, or is it the manager's job?
5
MR. GUILLEN: It's my job to make sure
6
that the manager knows.
7
THE COURT: Okay. So your job lS really
8
to voice the concern to the manager.
9
MR. GUILLEN: I stay downstairs the
10
whole time --
11
THE COURT: You don't have the authority
12
to do anything other than to let the manager
13
know, am I correct?
14
MR. GUILLEN: I also keep track of comp
15
tickets
16
THE COURT: Well, no, I'm saying -- if
17
it turns out that you determine the place is
18
over the number that should be allowed, you
19
would advise the manager, am I correct? You
20
would not take any other steps?
21
MR. GUILLEN: Slow it down
22
No.
23
THE COURT: The manager then would make
24
a decision to determine to close the door?
25
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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5
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
MR. GUILLEN: Or slow it down.
THE COURT: Or slow it down?
MR. GUILLEN: Yes.
Thank you, Slr.
1
2
3
4
6
MR. SWITKES: I call Mauricio Rodriguez.
7
He is the counterpart to the exit guy.
8
THE COURT: Okay.
9
We are getting the full picture here.
10
Yes, sir? Your name, please?
11
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Mauricio Rodriguez.
12
MR. SWITKES: And your home address?
13
MR. RODRIGUEZ: 1220 S.W. 136th Place.
14
MR. SWITKES: Were you employed on
15
August 10, 1997?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, I was.
MR. SWITKES: By whom?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Liquid, Inc.
MR. SWITKES: Could you keep your voice
16
17
18
19
20
up, please?
21
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Liquid, Inc.
22
MR. SWITKES: And what was you job
23
there?
24
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I do the clicker of the
25
entrance.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Speak up.
2
MR. SWITKES: And your job is what?
3
MR. RODRIGUEZ: To count heads as they
4
come in.
5
MR. SWITKES: Do you count every head?
6
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Everybody.
7
MR. SWITKES: And do you communicate
8
with Marcello?
9
MR. RODRIGUEZ: With Marcello and the
10
managers.
11
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And are you
12
instructed to do anything when the entrance
13
clicker reaches a certain number?
14
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, I am.
15
MR. SWITKES: What are you instructed
16
to do?
17
MR. RODRIGUEZ: To hold the door.
18
MR. SWITKES: And what are the numbers?
19
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Six hundred minus the
20
people -- well it's whatever exit, is what we
21
let in. So it can vary.
22
THE COURT: At what point in time do you
23
stOPI-- when you see -- at what number do you
24
stop letting people in? What number do you see
25
on your clicker?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. RODRIGUEZ:
When we reach in the
2
five hundreds, or whatever, as far as, you know
3
-- there can be five hundred come in and one
4
hundred leave, there will be four hundred.
5
So whatever Marcello's clicker says, he
6
subtracts it from mine and that's we hold the
7
door or we let people in.
8
MR. SWITKES: During the evening, do you
9
go to the bathroom?
10
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
11
MR. SWITKES: Shocking.
12
During those times do you have someone
13
else take your clicker?
14
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Most -- usually the
15
manager himself, or one of the owner's brothers.
16
MR. SWITKES:
Okay. And on the evening
17
in question, do you recall any Fire Code
18
Inspectors coming to inspect the premises. We
19
are talking about 8/10/97.
20
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, I do.
21
MR. SWITKES: And do you recall
22
Is there a record kept and we have put
23
it im evidence, of how many people in total
24
enter the club?
25
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes. Marcello does that
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
at the end of the night.
2
MR. SWITKES:
Now, In the context of
3
how many people are on one floor or the other
4
floor, do you walk around the club or do you
5
stay at the entrance?
6
MR. RODRIGUEZ: When I usually go to the
7
bathroom, I go upstairs. You know, I walk
8
though it and I can tell and, basically,
9
whatever the clicker says is what's up there.
10
Because I have to be -- you know, I've got to
11
press exactly for this reason.
12
MR. SWITKES: Now when Lieutenant
13
Goldberg went in the club, he has testified
14
about specific people being congregated in areas
15
of the club. Can you testify how many people
16
were located at the assembly area right after
17
the stairway?
18
MR. RODRIGUEZ: It wasn't seventy.
19
MR. SWITKES: Why not?
20
MR. RODRIGUEZ: First, there is not two
21
hundred square feet as he mentioned, or whatever
22
it was. Plus there is a T-shirt counter that
23
woul~n't allow that.
24
MR. SWITKES: What do you mean by a T-
25
shirt counter?
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. RODRIGUEZ: There is a T-shirt
2
counter that takes up half of the hallway,
3
basically.
4
MR. SWITKES: And what is that T-shirt
5
counter and what function does it serve?
6
MR. RODRIGUEZ: It sells T-shirts,
7
candies and gum to the public.
8
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And therefore, it
9
cuts down the amount of people that could --
10
MR. RODRIGUEZ: That can be, yes --
11
MR. SWITKES: -- be in this area?
12
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
13
MR. SWITKES: What do you think is the
14
amount of people that could congregate in the
15
areas Lieutenant Goldberg testified about?
16
MR. RODRIGUEZ: The entrance?
17
MR. SWITKES: Yes.
18
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Maximum, maybe thirty.
19
MR. SWITKES: Okay. In the context of
20
what has been testified to here today, is the
21
eight hundred fifty-two the total count that was
22
In the club all of 8/10/97?
23
MR. RODRIGUEZ: From 11:00 to 5:00.
24
MR. SWITKES: Now, during the course of
25
the evenings at your club and other clubs on
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
99
1
South Beach, do people come in and stay from
2
11:00 to 5:00?
3
MR. RODRIGUEZ: No.
4
MR. SWITKES: What do they do?
5
MR. RODRIGUEZ: In and out. Sometimes
6
they come in at 11:00 -- the ones that come in
7
at 11:00, usually they are gone by 1:00.
8
Because there is an older crowd that don't want
9
to stay until 5:00 or 3:00, or whatever. They
10
come In and they leave.
11
MR. SWITKES: Now be careful, you are
12
going to start getting people angry about here.
13
What older crowd are we talking about?
14
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I don't know. Thirty,
15
forty.
16
MR. SWITKES: Real old people, yeah.
17
And who comes in, the younger people,
18
who comes in there besides Mr. Rosen?
19
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Everybody else,
20
basically. You know, you have the older
21
(INAUDIBLE) that's over twenty-three like me,
22
but basically, you know, the people like
23
tour~sts that just want to look at the club
24
because they heard about it.
25
They come in -- usually, I just see
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
people come in and five minutes later they are
2
leaving. They say, "Thank you, we had a good
3
time," this and that.
4
MR. SWITKES: The average stay of one of
5
your guests would be approximately what?
6
MR. RODRIGUEZ: One and a half, two
7
hours.
8
MR. SWITKES: So in a context --
9
First of all, what's the busiest season
10
for your club?
11
MR. RODRIGUEZ: For every club on South
12
Beach it's coming up now.
13
MR. SWITKES: And what are the slowest
14
seasons.
15
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Well, thank God we don't
16
have a slow season, but it's supposedly during
17
the summer.
18
MR. SWITKES: In the evening, how many
19
times would you say you turn over, to use the
20
phrase of restaurants, the crowd in your club?
21
MR. RODRIGUEZ: What do you mean,
22
turnover?
23
MR. SWITKES: People coming and going.
24
Of the total eight hundred fifty-two?
25
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Many times or often, I
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
see Marcello every minute -- where I'm at, I can
2
see him all the time.
3
MR. SWITKES: How many people were in
4
the club at anyone particular time during
5
8/10/97?
6
MR. RODRIGUEZ:
(INAUDIBLE) About six
7
hundred. That's including both spots.
8
THE COURT: What number did you say?
9
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Six hundred. Both
10
locations. At Liquid Lounge and Liquid
11
upstairs.
12
MR. SWITKES: Okay. And the maximum
13
load for both is six hundred (INAUDIBLE)?
14
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Something like that.
15
MR. SWITKES: Something like that
16
( INAUDIBLE)
17
No further questions.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You said there were
19
about six hundred people in both areas of the
20
club on the night in question, is that correct?
21
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: It could be six hundred
23
ten, \couldn't it?
24
MR. RODRIGUEZ: (INAUDIBLE)
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How did you arrive
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
how do you know it's between six hundred and six
2
hundred ten?
3
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Because when Marcello
4
has explained to you twenty times already,
5
Marcello and I -- we keep a
6
THE COURT: You may have to explain it
7
twenty more times.
8
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I understand that. So
9
you can understand, me and Marcello keep it
10
together. We ask -- I ask him how many he's got
11
and I subtract and that's what we let in.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: At 2:40 in the morning
13
how many people exactly you would be able to
14
give an exact figure then, wouldn't you?
15
MR. RODRIGUEZ: At this time, no. But I
16
am telling you right now, there was never more
17
than six hundred.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: At 2:40 in the morning,
19
you said there were six hundred people there,
20
right?
21
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Approximately. You said
23
maybe six hundred ten, isn't that correct?
24
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And you also said that
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
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1
you didn't check your clicker at that point,
2
isn't that true?
3
MR. RODRIGUEZ: We always check the
4
clicker.
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Where are you located in
6
the club?
7
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Right at the entrance.
8
I do a clicker for everybody that walks
9
In.
10
ER. GOLDSTEIN: Where lS the person with
11
the other clicker located?
12
MR. RODRIGUEZ: At the exit.
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How often do you compare
14
clickers?
15
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Every five, ten,
16
fifteen, twenty minutes.
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: So you leave your post
18
while people may be exiting and he leaves his
19
post while people may be entering
20
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, but (INAUDIBLE)
21
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: -- let me finish my
23
question. To compare clickers
24
THE COURT: We had a bad (INAUDIBLE)
25
MR. RODRIGUEZ:
(INAUDIBLE)
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. The entrance guy
8
and the exit guy get together every how often?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Every ten or fifteen
minutes.
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Every ten or fifteen
minutes.
How do you get together?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: We're only ten feet away
2
3
4
5
6
7
9
from each other. It only takes a second.
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Where are the exit and
11
the entrance?
12
THE COURT: They're in the same
13
location.
14
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Here's the front door
15
(indicating). I'm right inside the door and
16
Marcello is about right here (indicating).
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: But you have no
18
recollection of doing that at 2:40 in the
19
morning on the night in question?
20
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I have no recollection,
21
but I'm sure it was done.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Was William Shaffer one
23
of tNe managers on the night in question?
24
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, he was.
25
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, not to belabor
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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1
this point (INAUDIBLE) at 2:40 in the morning
2
exactly how many people were in the club
3
(INAUDIBLE)
4
THE COURT: Is that true?
5
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think that's fair. I
6
mean, I think --
7
THE COURT: So stipulated.
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Right. I think no one
9
can say exactly how many and there are cases
10
similar to a fifty-five speed limit. If you're
11
gOlng eighty
12
THE COURT: I understand. Okay. Let's
13
keep on moving.
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How do you tell how many
15
people are upstairs and how many people are
16
downstairs?
17
MR. RODRIGUEZ: An estimate.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And you only do that
19
estimate when you go to the bathroom, isn't that
20
true?
21
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Just about.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How often do you go to
23
the mathroom?
24
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Maybe twice a night.
25
THE COURT: Has it been determined that
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he over went upstairs or downstairs? I'm
2
curious. I can't remember.
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: He testified that he
4
went upstairs --
5
He testified that he went to the
6
bathroom and now he's testifying that he went to
7
the bathroom twice, and I asked him --
8
MR. RODRIGUEZ: No, you asked me how
9
many times I go to the bathroom and I said
10
maybe once or twice.
11
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And those were the only
12
times when you would check how many people were
13
upstairs and how many people were downstairs?
14
MR. RODRIGUEZ:
Yes, but the managers
15
are upstairs and downstairs all night. So, they
16
know.
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: But you're not the
18
manager and you can't testify to that, because
19
you only check when you go to the bathroom,
20
isn't that correct?
21
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes, but I take orders
22
from the manager.
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Do you remember if you
24
went upstairs at 2:40 in the morning on that
25
night?
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MR. RODRIGUEZ: No, I don't.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And you would agree with
3
your predecessor who testified that the twenty
4
security guards, the twelve bartenders and the
5
servers are not counted in this eight hundred
6
fifty-two people?
7
MR. SWITKES: Objection. Irrelevant.
8
( INAUDIBLE)
9
THE COURT: Overruled. It is relevant.
10
MR. SWITKES:
(INAUDIBLE) including
11
office areas, Your Honor, which are not included
12
in their maximum square footage located in the
13
club.
14
THE COURT: The objection lS overruled.
15
It is relevant.
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't have any other
17
questions of this witness.
18
THE COURT: Thank you.
19
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, I would like
20
to move the schematic in, if there is no
21
objection, as well as the Life Safety Code, NFPA
22
101, 1995.
23
THE COURT: I don't think there is any
24
objection.
25
MR. SWITKES: The schematic being marked
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as an exhibit --
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Sure--
3
THE COURT: It includes the Life Safety
4
Code --
5
MR. SWITKES: And it includes the Life
6
Safety Code.
7
THE COURT: So that will be Exhibit Two
8
and that will be Exhibit Three. Am I correct?
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't know if it's
10
appropriate to make the law an exhibit, but --
11
THE COURT: Well, it's almost like a
12
deposition, you presume that's it's not an
13
exhibit, but we will use it as a reference
14
point. So, in a way you are correct.
15
THE GOLDSTEIN: The law is the law and
16
obviously, the Master can consider that, sure.
17
THE COURT: So it doesn't necessarily
18
have to be marked as an exhibit, but we will use
19
it for reference.
20
Okay.
21
MR. SWITKES: Mark Stone, Your Honor.
22
THE COURT: Mark Stone?
23
MR. SWITKES: Please state your name and
24
address.
25
MR. STONE: Mark Stone. 1470 Lincoln
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1
Terrace, Miami Beach.
2
MR. SWITKES: Are you employed, sir?
3
MR. STONE: Yes.
4
MR. SWITKES: Who are you employed by?
5
MR. STONE: Liquid, Inc.
6
MR. SWITKES: How long have you been
7
employed by Liquid?
8
MR. STONE: Approximately three and a
9
half months.
10
THE COURT: Three and a half weeks?
11
MR. STONE: Months.
12
MR. SWITKES: And what is your job
13
there?
14
MR. STONE: I have a variety of
15
different positions at the club.
16
MR. SWITKES: Could you give us a few of
17
those so we understand what you do?
18
MR. STONE: I do security work. I work
19
at the door. I do work in the office. I do the
20
repairs in the club.
21
MR. SWITKES: And I am sure they pay you
22
accordingly.
23
In the context of your job function
24
during the evenings when the club is open, do
25
you do anything in regard to the clickers we
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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have just heard from?
2
MR. STONE: I have worked the clickers
3
on occasions, yes.
4
MR. SWITKES: In addition to that, when
5
you are working on the evening security, what
6
does security have to do with the clickers?
7
MR. STONE: Security not so much as to
8
do with the clickers themselves, but relates
9
information to the managers and the people
10
working the clickers as to any problems that are
11
going to be caused by groups of people forming
12
at a top of a staircase, so there would be a
13
problem with people moving back and forth.
14
I also have a better idea of what you
15
asking them about how many people would be
16
upstairs and how many people would be downstairs
17
at any glven time.
18
MR. SWITKES: Were you working on
19
8/10/97?
20
MR. STONE: Yes, I was.
21
MR. SWITKES: We have heard testimony
22
from Lieutenant Goldberg about a congregation of
23
peop~e at the entrance right after the
24
stairwell. Can you tell us the configuration of
25
that particular area with club personnel and
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displays, etc.?
2
MR. STONE: On that, I would have to
3
agree with Marcello stated. There is a rather
4
large obstruction created by the concession
5
stand, which is in that exact area making it
6
impossible for seventy people to be there.
7
MR. SWITKES: Do you have the ability or
8
do you have responsibility to walk around to the
9
various clubs within a club, if I might use that
10
term?
11
MR. STONE: Yes, I do.
12
MR. SWITKES: And we described an area,
13
a VIP area, where is that on what's been marked
14
as Appellant's Exhibit Number Two?
15
MR. STONE: The VIP area would be here
16
(indicating) .
17
MR. SWITKES: How lS that segregated
18
from the remainder of the club?
19
MR. STONE:
(INAUDIBLE) partition and
20
table separating it as a separate room.
21
MR. SWITKES: And then Lieutenant
22
Goldberg referred to this area on the bottom of
23
the diagram. What is that?
24
MR. STONE: That is (INAUDIBLE) separate
25
room.
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MR. SWITKES: And how is that separated
2
from the remainder of the upper floor?
3
MR. STONE: With an entrance at the top
4
of the stairs, which is the same are with the
5
concession stand and where there was a supposed
6
(PAUSE IN TAPE) private entrance on the other
7
side -- the other side of the stage.
8
MR. SWITKES: Okay. The big area In the
9
middle is what type of area?
10
MR. STONE: It's basically a dance floor
11
with a bar in the middle.
12
MR. SWITKES: And downstairs, how big
13
-- what is located downstairs, referred to as a
14
lounge previously?
15
MR. STONE: Downstairs in the lounge
16
there is an area as you walk in the door that
17
has couches and chairs that are basically
18
reserved for VIP's and people who order bottles
19
and reserve the tables ahead of time.
20
And then you have a bar that is in the
21
direct center of the room. Then there are
22
stairs that lead up to a mezzanine-type dance
23
floOD.
24
MR. SWITKES: At anyone particular
25
time, can you tell us exactly how many people
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were on floor one versus floor two?
2
MR. STONE: Exactly, no. I don't
3
believe anybody could.
4
MR. SWITKES: Can you approximate as
5
part of your job in security, how many people
6
were located in the various floors of the club?
7
MR. STONE: To a degree, yes.
8
MR. SWITKES: And when the club has
9
music, do the people from downstairs sometime
10
come up stairs?
11
MR. STONE: Yes and vice versa. There
12
lS
the design of the club and the whole
13
purpose lS
as it lS divided into different
14
rooms. There are also DJ's in those different
15
rooms that are playing different types of music.
16
MR. SWITKES: People move from
17
downstairs to upstairs and vice versa?
18
MR. STONE: Correct.
19
MR. SWITKES: If in fact you are in the
20
upstairs and you notice that there is a
21
condition wherein it's getting crowded, do you
22
communicate with people at the front door who
23
are qllowing people to gain entrance?
24
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Objection. He's just
25
leading him.
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MR. SWITKES: I'll rephrase that
2
question.
3
THE COURT: What was the question, I'm
4
sorry?
5
MR. SWITKES: Do you communicate with
6
the persons located at the front door as to how
7
many people enter the club?
8
THE COURT: Overruled.
9
MR. STONE: No, not generally.
10
MR. SWITKES: Who would do that?
11
MR. STONE: That would be a manager, or
12
possibly our head of security.
13
MR. SWITKES: And on the evening in
14
question, 8/10/97, did you find at any time
15
during that evening that the club was
16
overcrowded?
17
MR. STONE: I saw no specific instance
18
of that.
19
MR. SWITKES: You heard Lieutenant
20
Goldberg testify about how many people were
21
upstairs on 8/10/97 at 2:40?
22
MR. STONE: And I would have a very
23
strong argument with the seventy people he
24
claims were in the front hallway and I would
25
have an even bigger problem with the two hundred
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1
people in the separate bar area.
2
MR. SWITKES: What would be your
3
argument with him about the separate bar area?
4
MR. STONE: I don't believe you can fit
5
two hundred people in there.
6
MR. SWITKES: How many people maximum
7
have you ever seen in that lounge?
8
MR. STONE: In that private
9
MR. SWITKES: Yes.
10
MR. STONE: -- over here (indicating)?
11
I would say the maximum you could fit in
12
there is one hundred and fifty people.
13
You have dance boxes, you have a bar,
14
you have a DJ booth. There is just not enough
15
space.
16
MR. SWITKES: On the dance floor, the
17
major dance floor in the middle of the second
18
floor, how many people would be dancing at any
19
one particular time on the evening in question?
20
MR. STONE: I estimate two hundred
21
fifty, two hundred seventy.
22
MR. SWITKES: Would those people be
23
movi~g between first floor, second floor, the
24
VIP Lounge (INAUDIBLE)?
25
MR. STONE: Correct.
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MR. SWITKES: And at no time during that
2
evening did you find a time where the upstairs
3
club would be overcrowded for any length of
4
time?
5
MR. STONE: No, because what he based
6
that on was his ability to walk through the
7
crowd and that's my job all night, so I would
8
notice if you couldn't walk through the club
9
crowd, because that's what I have to do.
10
MR. SWITKES: And if you couldn't walk
11
through the crowd, what would you do?
12
MR. STONE: I would tell either the
13
manager or the head of security that the door
14
needs to be told to either slow down or freeze
15
the door.
16
MR. SWITKES: No further questions.
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You mentioned that there
18
were two hundred and seventy people on the night
19
in question on the dance floor?
20
MR. STONE: I estimated that's what I
21
would put there, yes.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And Lieutenant Goldberg
23
esti~ated around three hundred, so --
24
MR. STONE: On the main dance floor,
25
yes.
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MR. GOLDSTEIN: What's the occupancy
2
limitation upstairs?
3
MR. STONE: (INAUDIBLE)
4
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How much of the upstairs
5
is the dance floor? (INAUDIBLE)
6
MR. STONE: Tonnage?
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes.
8
MR. STONE: Total, a third.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The dance floor is one
10
third of the upstairs area of the club, is that
11
correct?
12
MR. STONE: Given the entire area
13
upstairs.
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: There are other people
15
16
MR. STONE: That's bathrooms, offices
17
and --
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: There were other people
19
In the club, aside from people on the dance
20
floor on the night in question, isn't that true?
21
MR. STONE: Yes.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Those other people were
23
\
upstairs, downstairs?
24
MR. STONE: Both.
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You heard a witness who
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testified that there may have been SlX hundred
2
ten people on the --
3
MR. STONE: No, I wouldn't agree with
4
that.
5
THE COURT: You don't agree?
6
MR. STONE: No, I don't.
7
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE)
8
THE COURT: I'm sorry. Let me go back
9
to this before you answer that.
10
How many people did you feel were In the
11
club around that time?
12
MR. STONE: At 2:40 in the morning?
13
THE COURT: Yes.
14
MR. STONE: I would have to say I would
15
estimate it between five hundred forty and five
16
seventy-five.
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Which is -- five hundred
18
seventy-five is pretty close to six hundred ten,
19
is it not?
20
MR. STONE: You asked me would I agree
21
with six hundred to six hundred ten. I told you
22
no.
23
THE COURT: All I did was just a follow-
24
up question, that's all.
25
Keep on going. You were asking another
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
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question?
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: What is your formal job
3
with this club?
4
MR. STONE: I said I have several
5
positions.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Would you care to
7
elaborate (INAUDIBLE)?
8
MR. STONE: I do the repairs during the
9
daytime for the club. I work security at night.
10
I have done the clickers, as they do. I do
11
general office work around the club.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: What was your role on
13
the night in question?
14
MR. STONE: I was working security.
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Were you working inside
16
the club or outside the club?
17
MR. STONE: Inside the club.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Where inside the club?
19
MR. STONE: Allover.
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Isn't it true that at
21
2:40 a.m. on the night in question, you don't
22
have any exact number of people that were in the
23
club?
24
MR. STONE: Yes, that is correct. I
25
just know the tendencies.
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MR. GOLDSTEIN: And if there is an
2
overcrowding problem, you wouldn't be the person
3
to close the doors. The manager would be,
4
wouldn't he?
5
MR. STONE: Right.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Was Mr. Shaffer the
7
manager on the night in question?
8
MR. STONE: Yes.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
(INAUDIBLE) upstairs at
10
2:40 a.m. on the night in question?
11
MR. STONE: As I said, my estimation,
12
which is the best I can give you -- I didn't do
13
a headcount. I don't have a clicker. My
14
estimate would be in the area of four hundred
15
people.
16
THE COURT: Would be in the area of
17
what?
18
MR. STONE: Would be in the area of four
19
hundred people.
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Could it be four hundred
21
ten?
22
MR. STONE: Could.
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Could it be four hundred
24
twenty?
25
MR. STONE: I would say, it could. But
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I would also have to say it could also be three
2
hundred ninety. It could go ten either way.
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Could it be four hundred
4
thirty?
5
MR. STONE: No, I wouldn't go that high.
6
THE COURT: What did you say?
7
MR. STONE: No, I would not go that
8
high.
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Would you agree that the
10
clickers can't determine how many people are at
11
one time upstairs and how many people are
12
downstairs?
13
MR. STONE: Yes, I would agree with
14
that.
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't have any other
16
questions for this witness.
17
THE COURT: I have a question.
18
The five hundred seventy-five people you
19
said you estimated to be in the club around
20
2:40, did that include staff and support
21
persons?
22
MR. STONE: No, not particularly. I
23
don't generally include them in my estimation.
24
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
25
There are disadvantages of not having a
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court reporter.
2
Okay.
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I hope he's at a
4
disadvantage.
5
THE COURT: No. I'm just saying in just
6
trying to keep track. I hope my notes are
7
right.
8
Let's keep on going.
9
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE)
10
include both upstairs and downstairs?
11
MR. STONE: Correct.
12
MR. SWITKES: At this time, Your Honor,
13
there are no other witnesses on this citation,
14
but I'd like to argue the legal merits of the
15
citation itself.
16
THE COURT: Well, does the City plan to
17
present witnesses, any testimony or any
18
witnesses -- and also, I'd like -- I have
19
before we get to that point, I don't know
20
whether it is appropriate now, I think it may be
21
appropriate now.
22
I have a couple of questions of your
23
witn~sses. Let's go back to Mr. Marcello.
24
MR. SWITKES: Sure.
25
THE COURT: I think I have -- I don't
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know your last name. What is your last name,
2
sir?
3
6
MR. GUILLEN: Guillen.
THE COURT: How do you spell it?
MR. GUILLEN: G-u-i-l-l-e-n.
THE COURT: G-u-l-l-i-n?
MR. GUILLEN: G-u-i-l-l-e-n.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: G-u-i-l-l-e-n.
4
5
7
8
9
THE COURT: Oh, e-n? Oh, Guillen?
10
Is that French?
11
MR. GUILLEN: Portuguese - well,
12
Spanish, but mixed, you know.
13
THE COURT: Okay. My question is how
14
were you trained to count the numbers, or were
15
you trained to count the numbers?
16
MR. GUILLEN: Click everybody that walks
17
out gets clicked out on my clicker.
18
THE COURT: Have you ever been trained
19
to count numbers or the number of people in a
20
room?
21
MR. GUILLEN: No, that's what I go by,
22
his clicker.
23
THE COURT: So you really have no
24
training on giving an estimate or an
25
approximation of the number of persons in a
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given area?
2
MR. GUILLEN: Yes. I subtract my number
3
from his number.
4
THE COURT: You are relying totally on
5
clickers and nothing else?
6
MR. GUILLEN: (INAUDIBLE)
7
THE COURT: If you were to go upstairs
8
in the lounge and walk around, would you be able
9
to tell me how many people were there?
10
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE) would be like
11
ten people. Just by knowledge.
12
THE COURT: No, this is an easy one,
13
because
14
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE)
15
No, let's talk about the night In
16
question.
17
MR. GUILLEN: Oh, the night in question?
18
THE COURT: If you went upstairs say
19
around 2:00 o'clock or 3:30 or 2:30 and somebody
20
said, "How many people do you think are in the
21
room," would you be able to tell them?
22
MR. GUILLEN: Upstairs and downstairs or
23
just \the whole --
24
THE COURT: Just upstairs?
25
MR. GUILLEN:
(INAUDIBLE) That's why I
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go upstairs. Sometimes I go by the clicker and
2
upstairs.
3
THE COURT: How would you do it?
4
First of all, would you be able to tell
5
me?
6
MR. GUILLEN: Yeah
you, know -- I
7
don't know. You'd have to
I'd have to be in
8
that situation, I guess.
9
THE COURT: Okay. So, you don't know?
10
MR. GUILLEN: No, I go by the clickers.
11
THE COURT: Thank you.
12
But I had a question for
13
What happened to Lieutenant
14
Thank you, sir.
15
Lieutenant Goldberg? Did he leave?
16
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I hope not. No, he's
17
-- I'm sure he's out in the hall.
18
THE COURT: Basically, I have the same
19
kind of questions to ask him.
20
I want to know what it is, how do you do
21
it and if they're trained.
22
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think Mr. Switkes
23
accurately summarized it as that, nobody here
24
can tell you exactly how many people were there.
25
THE COURT: I understand that, but some
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1
can do it a little bit better than others.
2
Okay. Mr. -- I'm sorry, Lieutenant
3
Goldberg?
4
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
5
THE COURT: When you go into a room --
6
say you went upstairs to the lounge area, how
7
are you able to determine
8
Would you be able to tell me how many
9
people were in that room around 2:30?
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: What do you mean
11
by the lounge area?
12
THE COURT: The lounge area at the top
13
floor. The whole second floor.
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Oh, the Liquid
15
area. The lounge is downstairs.
16
THE COURT: The Liquid area.
17
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Basically,
18
THE COURT: No, the first question is a
19
yes or no. Would you be able to tell me how
20
many people were in that area?
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Not exactly.
22
THE COURT: Okay.
23
How would you be able to glve me an
24
approximation, if that's possible?
25
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: By looking at the
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concentration of people.
2
THE COURT: Have you been trained to do
3
that?
4
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, there is no
5
formal training.
6
THE COURT: There is no formal training?
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: There is no formal
8
training.
9
THE COURT: Well, how did you come up
10
with a number?
11
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Well, basically, I
12
went with the less concentrated area. Then I
13
looked at the concentrated area and the size of
14
the concentrated area, and that's basically how
15
I figured it out.
16
THE COURT: Okay. So what do you mean
17
you look at the less concentrated area?
18
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: As I walked in
19
that area --
20
THE COURT: Do you count?
21
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Yes.
22
THE COURT: I want you to articulate as
23
best 'you can how it's done.
24
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG:
(INAUDIBLE)
25
THE COURT: Because I look in a room and
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I only come up with fifty and you may come up
2
with one hundred.
3
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I went all the way
4
up to the front of the bar area.
5
THE COURT: I don't want you to rehash
6
testimony.
7
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Oh, okay, yes.
8
THE COURT: I just want you to give me
9
an idea.
10
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: I counted seventy
11
12
THE COURT:
(INAUDIBLE) on how you would
13
do it.
14
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: -- and I attempted
15
to go in this area over here (indicating) and it
16
was totally
17
You couldn't move ln this area
18
(indicating) --
19
THE COURT: But I don't want you to
20
rehash the testimony. I want you to tell me how
21
22
Really, how do you do it? How is it
23
done ?\
24
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: Generally, if I go
25
into an establishment and I have a great deal of
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difficulty moving through the area and it's
2
densely concentrated throughout, I know it's
3
overcrowded.
4
THE COURT: And that's it?
5
LIEUTENANT GOLDBERG: That's it.
6
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
7
Anything from the City?
8
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
9
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Judge,
10
(INAUDIBLE)
11
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
12
You know Mr. Switkes has the opportunity
13
to cross-examine whoever it is?
14
Okay.
15
(PAUSE IN TAPE.)
16
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The man is a City
17
of Miami Beach Fire Inspector.
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you have an
19
opportunity to visit this Club Liquid?
20
MR. SWITKES: Objection. Irrelevant.
21
It happened on August 10th.
22
THE COURT: What is the relevancy?
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
(INAUDIBLE) to get
24
there, (INAUDIBLE)
25
THE COURT: Why don't you proffer to me
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what he may testify to and then I will make a
2
decision.
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: One of these witnesses
4
testified that they could not put two hundred
5
people inside (INAUDIBLE)
6
THE COURT: Mr. Switkes?
7
MR. SWITKES: Subsequent to the night in
8
question would be irrelevant.
9
THE COURT: Sustained.
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The issue is not --
11
Well, let me just proffer it then for
12
the record.
13
THE COURT: Okay.
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: The issue is not as far
15
as the night in question. The issue is his
16
witnesses said that more than two hundred people
17
or two hundred people cannot fit, period, inside
18
that room. I (INAUDIBLE)
19
THE COURT: So, the purpose of the --
20
(PAUSE IN TAPE)
21
attack the credibility of one of the
22
Petitioner's witnesses, but not really to verify
23
that \n fact, on the day in question, on
24
8/10/97, somehow or another there were two
25
hundred people in the room.
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MR. GOLDSTEIN: That's correct, Judge.
2
THE COURT: Okay. I will allow it in
3
for that limited purpose.
4
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you have occasion
5
within the past month or two to visit Club
6
Liquid?
7
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I was there on
8
last Monday
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And did you enter the
10
club?
11
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, sir, I did.
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Did you (INAUDIBLE)?
13
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, I did.
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Which area? Could you
15
please show The Special Master on this map?
16
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is the
17
private dance area (indicating).
18
MR. GOLDSTEIN: How many people did you
19
count in that area?
20
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I counted the
21
actual faces that I saw as I passed through and
22
counted two hundred ten people.
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN: No further questions.
24
MR. SWITKES: How long did it take you
25
to count?
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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whatever the
2
amount of time was it took me to walk from one
3
door where I entered to the door that I exited.
4
MR. SWITKES: We need an approximation
5
of time.
6
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Approximately
7
four or five minutes.
8
MR. SWITKES: During that time, people
9
were entering and leaving the room, isn't that
10
correct?
11
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Correct.
12
MR. SWITKES: And there are entrances
13
and exits on both sides of the room?
14
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Correct.
15
MR. SWITKES: So, you are talking about
16
a five-minute period of counting heads which
17
would encompass the a time when people were
18
walking in and out?
19
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Actually, the
20
area that I walked through, people were not
21
walking in and out, because they, basically,
22
could not move.
23
MR. SWITKES: Even if that's true, the
24
people right next to the entrance on one side
25
and the entrance and exit on the other side,
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could come and go?
2
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Correct.
3
As I passed through the entrance, I
4
counted the people as I walked to the rear and
5
before I even made it to where the exit was, I
6
stopped counting.
7
MR. SWITKES: Now, you're saying it took
8
four to five minutes?
9
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, sir.
10
MR. SWITKES: Now, people were coming
11
and going through that you just testified about?
12
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Correct.
13
MR. SWITKES: So how many people did you
14
count twice?
15
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nobody passed
16
people went passing by me. So I counted
17
everybody once.
18
MR. SWITKES: How did you walk through
19
the room with two -- I don't mean to get on --
20
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I had a police
21
officer that had a flashlight that was trying to
22
clear the way as we passed through, and I was
23
with ~he manager also trying to clear the way.
24
MR. SWITKES: Was it dark?
25
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes it was.
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1
MR. SWITKES: Were there strobe lights?
2
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There may have
3
been.
4
MR. SWITKES: Were people dancing?
5
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, they were.
6
MR. SWITKES: Pretty difficult
7
situations with which to count heads, wouldn't
8
you say?
9
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Exactly. That's
10
why I only counted the people that I could see
11
as I passed through, and it was an estimation.
12
MR. SWITKES: And again, this doesn't
13
sound like a shot, but how tall are you?
14
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 5'6".
15
MR. SWITKES: And your answer is that
16
allegedly there were two hundred people involved
17
with two exits, and it's dark with strobe
18
lights, and people moving in and out of the
19
room, and people dancing? It's a little
20
difficult to accurately keep track of how many
21
people you were actually counting, isn't it?
22
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There probably
23
were ~any more than two hundred.
24
MR. SWITKES: No further questions.
25
THE COURT: Thank you.
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1
Anything else from the city? Do you all
2
want to wrap it up?
3
MR. GOLDBERG: Yes.
4
THE COURT: Oh, I have one more
5
question. I want to go back to Mr. Guillen, or
6
however you pronounce it.
7
On that Exhibit One, is that any reason
8
why you (INAUDIBLE) include the number of people
9
that exited? That took a great deal of --
10
MR. GUILLEN: Because throughout the
11
night I constantly have to subtract the number
12
with whatever he's got on.
13
THE COURT: Is there any reason why you
14
don't keep the total count of the number of
15
people who exited?
16
MR. GUILLEN:
all times.
THE COURT:
not on the form?
MR. GUILLEN:
THE COURT:
MR. GUILLEN:
THE COURT:
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
But, I have it on hand at
Is there any reason why it's
(INAUDIBLE), I guess.
Okay.
I could start.
Okay.
24
Let's wrap it up.
25
Thank you.
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MR. SWITKES: You don't allow any sleep-
2
over's, do you?
3
MR. GUILLEN: No.
s
THE COURT: No sleep-overs's? So
5
everybody eventually leaves?
6
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. Security
cleans the place out to make sure everybody is
8
out of there and goes home at night.
9
MR. SWITKES:
I'd like to call Mr. stone
12
on one issue, Your Honor, (INAUDIBLE)
1:
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
12
MR. SWITKES: Mr. Stone, in your
13
background, prior to working for Liquid, who
1~
have you worked for?
15
MR. STONE: I have worked for several
16
restaurants, clubs and concert security in
1'7
Chicago, Illinois.
18
MR. SWITKES: And during the course of
19
that occupation, were you trained in counting
20
the amount of people who congregated in an area?
2:
MR. STONE: Not officially trained, but,
22
yes, I was given guidelines to follow in that
23
regard.
2~
MR. SWITKES: And how long have you been
25
doing that?
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1
MR. STONE: Approximately twelve years.
2
MR. SWITKES: And in the context of your
3
being able to do that, you are able to look at a
4
room and estimate that the amount of people that
5
would be in any particular room (INAUDIBLE)
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I object to that. He's
7
obviously leading him.
8
THE COURT: Sustained.
9
All you had to do was reword the
10
question.
11
MR. SWITKES: Do you have an ability to
12
calculate the amount of people in rooms?
13
MR. STONE: I believe I have an ability
14
to calculate them more precisely than walking
15
through. I tend to have a system, if you'd like
16
an explanation.
17
MR. SWITKES: Sure.
18
MR. STONE: As opposed to walking
19
through the room and giving an opportunity for
20
people to walk past or walk in and out of the
21
room. Or, to try and look over a crowd or
22
through a crowd to determine.
23
I found that it's much easier to --
24
given that you already know the size of the
25
room, you can take people -- the amount of
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people you can count across the room this way
2
(indicating), and then the amount of people it
3
would take -- you take that and then you
4
multiply just as if you had a graph chart, as if
5
each was a square to fill up the room.
6
So if you had this many people across,
7
times this many people long, then that gives you
8
an estimation of how many people are in the
9
room.
10
MR. SWITKES: Do you employ that system
11
working at that club?
12
MR. STONE: I have.
13
MR. SWITKES: And you have done that for
14
how many years?
15
MR. STONE: Approximately twelve, on and
16
off.
17
MR. SWITKES: No further questions.
18
THE COURT: Thank you.
19
Let's wrap it --
20
Oh, I'm sorry, go right ahead.
21
MR. GOLDSTEIN: You didn't employ that
22
system at 2:40 a.m. on the night in question,
23
dl'd I
you?
24
MR. STONE: I can't say for a fact I did
25
or didn't. Because I didn't know this was going
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to be result.
2
MR. GOLDSTEIN: That's an honest answer.
3
I don't have any further questions.
4
THE COURT: Would you all mind if I take
5
a five-minute break before I start the closing
6
before you do your closing?
7
Before you begin closing and wrapping it
8
up, Mr. Switkes, you cited on Page -- of the
9
Life Safety Code -- you cited, I think it was,
10
101-80 Section 7-1.71?
11
MR. SWITKES: That was 9-1.7.2.
12
THE COURT: 9-1.7.2?
13
MR. SWITKES: Correct.
14
THE COURT: Okay. How is that relevant?
15
I read it.
16
MR. SWITKES: Well, Judge, I believe
17
that we have a diagram which has been submitted
18
to the City and that it has been stipulated that
19
this is an area not greater than ten thousand
20
square fee, and the occupancy load shall not
21
exceed one person per five square feet, which is
22
significantly less
or actually, greater
23
conc~ntration that the city is applying in this
24
case.
25
Although I think Lieutenant Gibson --
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excuse me, Lieutenant Goldberg -- was answering
2
questions honestly, he doesn't actually know
3
what the statutes say, and the Life Safety Codes
4
that pertain to overcrowding. And--
5
THE COURT: But my question is, when I
6
read the section it says something about, "If
7
the necessary aisles and exits are provided,"
8
and I didn't hear any testimony as to that. So
9
my question is, how is this relevant?
10
MR. SWITKES: Well--
11
THE COURT: And that's what I was
12
focusing on, that part of it.
13
MR. SWITKES: The occupancy loads
14
created by the City for the exits in this
15
facility justify the number they gave, although
16
we argued that we submitted plans, and certainly
17
will -- with the additional exit, will
18
accommodate extra.
19
In a concentrated
in this case, what
20
I'm taking is that section along with, 9-1.7 and
21
8-1.7, and I don't mean to castigate Lieutenant
22
Goldberg, but his interpretation of this Code
23
and the congregation of groups in specific
24
areas, for instance in this club between the
25
upper floor and the lower floor, to interpret
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this Code, that if there is a concentration for
2
a small amount of time and the only time that we
3
are talking about here is, specifically, about
4
8/10/97 at 2:40 in the morning.
5
To issue a citation which has the
6
potential to revoke the license of a club
7
predicated upon how many people are located in
8
one specific area, and concentrated at a
9
particular time, is to turn the interpretation
10
of these codes on its head.
11
In essence, it allows the City Fire Code
12
inviolators to revoke a license of anybody.
13
When you have a club this large, and
14
have concentration like this, with people moving
15
freely between them, it really is not the intent
16
of this Code. I think the intent of this Code,
17
and I think the intent of this Code when
18
interpreted properly, says you clearly have a
19
concentration on a dance floor, for instance.
20
In a discotheque at a particular time,
21
that would overload that particular area. What
22
the Code is supposed to be interpreted broadly
23
to say is, that it is allowed to be overloaded
24
as long as there are sufficient aisles and area
25
of egress, and egress and exits, and aisles to
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be able to walk around. And they described a
2
multi-faceted structure with a dance floor at
3
one area, two bars, a VIP lounge, another lounge
4
to the right of that area and a separate totally
5
different bar downstairs.
6
My contention is that the law does not
7
contemplate violations on a specific time frame,
8
when everybody is guesstimating or estimating
9
when you interpret the Fire Safety Code
10
properly.
11
THE COURT: So, that is your response to
12
my question as to how that section on Page 101-
13
80 lS relevant?
14
Okay. Do you have a response?
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I would like to.
16
MR. SWITKES: I have yellow and pink.
17
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay.
18
The question that -- the section he
19
points to is completely irrelevant. Because as
20
the Court stated -- the Special Master stated --
21
there is no testimony on if necessary aisles and
22
exists are provided. In other words, extra
23
exit5.
24
The Court doesn't have to reach that
25
issue, because it says, "To increase the
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1
occupant load, a diagram indicating placement of
2
the equipment, aisles, exits and seating, shall
3
be provided to and approved by the authority
4
having jurisdiction prior to any increase in
5
occupancy load."
6
This is if they want to go and try to
7
get an increase ln occupancy load. I haven't
8
heard any testimony that we have approved, as
9
the City and as the regulatory authority, that
10
we have approved any increase in occupant load.
11
So this whole argument goes out the door
12
just based on that.
13
THE COURT: Thank you.
14
Why don't both of you proceed with the
15
closing arguments, and I'll listen and make
16
notes, and then I'll make a ruling. I will not
17
defer.
18
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, in conjunction
19
I believe, with the argument, although counsel
20
stated it's not done that way, I believe in the
21
context of arguing the case, the citations to
22
authority might not be introduce, but the actual
23
statJtes would be. And the statutory
24
THE COURT: I think sometime you just
25
take the (INAUDIBLE)
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MR. SWITKES: And that would be okay as
2
well, Your Honor.
3
In the context of these particular
4
citations, we have had this issue before. But
5
there are facial defects in the citations
6
themselves which preclude the City from
7
prevailing. I cite for the Court as a predicate
8
to that argument, the cases of Martin vs. Board
9
of Public Construction
10
THE COURT: Do you have a copy of the
11
case?
12
MR. SWITKES: Yes, Ma'am.
13
THE COURT: Okay. Did you give the City
14
a copy of it?
15
MR. SWITKES: I can get him copy. I'll
16
glve him the cites
17
THE COURT: No. As long as they are
18
aware of them.
19
MR. SWITKES: It's cited at 42 So.2d,
20
712. The case of Nenn, N-e-n-n, vs. Sun Country
21
Homeowners Association, cited at 604, So.2d,
22
897, and a number of cases, Supreme Court cases,
23
whicH cite to the very reference that when an
24
exercise of statutes granting powers to
25
municipal corporations, they are to be strictly
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1
construed, and any reasonable doubt as to the
2
existence of powers must be resolved against the
3
municipality.
4
These cases and the progeny stand for
5
the proposition, Your Honor, that you must
6
specifically use the verbiage in the ordinance
7
that the city has enacted to be able to not only
8
find these private entities, but rather to
9
impose the harshest sanctions that are available
10
to the municipality by actually taking the
11
property or taking away their occupational
12
license.
13
Again this case, as in other cases in
14
the past, the City has failed to cite their own
15
verbiage from the ordinance. As in the case
16
previously, I want to cite to the Court the case
17
of Amnesia vs. The City of Miami Beach.
18
I vow to The Court that I'm citing this
19
case not for the proposition that another
20
Special Master who is no longer with the City,
21
but his finding is not binding upon you that it
22
would be persuasive. But rather the binding
23
effe~t is the result of the appeal to the
24
Appellate Division of the Circuit Court of the
25
Eleventh Judicial Circuit for Dade County in
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
146
1
Case Number 96-3628P, wherein the Appellate
2
Court affirmed curturium, the finding of Special
3
Master Henry Laytay Vidall (phonetic). That the
4
strict instruction of these statutes preclude
5
the imposition of fines and sanctions against
6
club owners when they do not use the verbiage in
7
the sanctions --
8
THE COURT:
Is that issue before me,
9
sir?
10
MR. SWITKES: Yes, it is.
11
THE COURT: In what context?
12
MR. SWITKES: The same situation exists
13
ln these --
14
THE COURT: Why am I just hearing it now
15
in this context? Today? I mean, just two
16
seconds ago? I never heard this issue being
17
raised in this case.
18
MR. SWITKES: Well, because I said I
19
wanted to introduce this, and you said we can do
20
it on closing, and I'm saying it should be done
21
technically as part of my case, and you said you
22
would take judicial notice.
23
Any form and any method you want, Judge,
24
I'll be able to do it.
25
THE COURT: Okay.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
147
1
MR. SWITKES: But, I'm doing it now
2
because that when you gave me the opportunity to
3
do it.
4
This very citation that was issued to my
5
clients does not cite the statutory ordinance
6
that was enacted by the City of Miami Beach. In
7
fact, it changes the verbiage and the city has
8
stipulated to that in the past on the Twist
9
case, and I assume will do so again on the
10
reverse side of this.
11
It gives the Appellant the opportunity
12
to contest, but not to appeal. That is a
13
technical violation which precludes the
14
imposition of these sanctions against my client.
15
In that regard, I believe the binding
16
effect and the affirmance of the Circuit Court
17
of the Eleventh Judicial Circuit, binds this
18
Court to follow that decision.
19
In regard to the testimony heard, Your
20
Honor, I think what you have heard is
21
guesstimates of the City's witness, Lieutenant
22
Goldberg, and the trained employees of the club.
23
They 'testified as to the fact that the seventy
24
persons observed in the anti-room to the
25
upstairs lounge could not possibly be accurate
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
because of the other concessions that are there,
2
selling Liquid items such as T-shirts and other
3
items. The maximum amount of people in that are
4
could be thirty.
5
THE COURT: (INAUDIBLE)
6
MR. SWITKES: The dance floor and the
7
other areas have been testified to. The total
8
maximum usage of this club was six hundred five
9
at anyone time, using both downstairs and
10
upstairs.
11
To be able to use guesstimates to impose
12
these type of sanctions, without going into
13
legal ramifications on the citation itself, and
14
that to impose these kind of sanctions based
15
upon guesstimates for which Lieutenant Goldberg
16
admits he's had no formal training, would be
17
draconian, at the very least.
18
This club has an occupancy of six
19
hundred five. The witnesses testified to within
20
five, there wasn't that amount of people in the
21
club at anyone time.
22
The total count for the entire night was
23
eight hundred forty-two, between the hours of
24
11:00 and the hours of 5:00 in the morning.
25
with the turnover of this club and the
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
usual amount of time that a person spends in
2
these clubs of an hour and a half, it is very
3
hard to believe that on this particular night in
4
question, everybody that entered the club stayed
5
in the club and congregated at the time that
6
Lieutenant Goldberg was there. The more logical
7
explanation for Lieutenant Goldberg's
8
recollection or estimation of how many people
9
were upstairs, is the ebb and flow of people
10
from upstairs and downstairs, which is not a
11
violation of the Fire Safety Code that we're
12
applying in this case.
13
THE COURT: Thank you.
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
I'd like to begin, ln
15
closing, by saying that this is not a license
16
revocation hearing. I know he's tried to scare
17
the Special Master into believing it lS and --
18
THE COURT:
I don't think he is trying
19
to do that.
20
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. Maybe--
21
MR. SWITKES:
I don't think the Special
22
Master would be scared by that.
23
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
I just wanted to clarify
24
that we are seeking in this hearing any
25
revocation of a license. This is a fine
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
hearing.
2
THE COURT: How about the other case?
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: With regard to Mr. --
4
THE COURT: That was (INAUDIBLE), am I
5
correct?
6
MR. SWITKES: Yes, Ma'am.
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: with regard to opposing
8
counsel's argument in the Amnesia case, Special
9
Master, you have already rejected that.
10
In the case of Two-By-Two, doing
11
business as Twist, Case Number JAH-97-165
12
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor --
13
THE COURT: Yes.
14
MR. SWITKES: I don't like to interrupt
15
closing, but that is a particular case of some
16
soreness to my office, and what transpired in
17
that case is mind boggling, and I don't think we
18
ought to use that as a reference.
19
While I was in Federal Court in a trial
20
representing an officer of this City
officer
21
of this police department, in a twenty million
22
dollar claim against both the officer and the
23
City; I had presented a stipulation in agreement
24
with an officer, not this particular City
25
Attorney. So, it's unfair to go into it.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
THE COURT: All of these are facts that
2
I was not aware of.
3
MR. SWITKES:
I have to assume so,
4
because what happened
5
THE COURT:
I was not privy to it at
6
that time, and I made my ruling based on what
7
was before me at the time I made the decision.
8
MR. SWITKES: But, to use that as a
9
reference for this case when there are pleadings
10
to filed now that I'm out of that trial,
11
predicated upon a stipulation made to settle the
12
case, which is why memorandums weren't filed,
13
and then I get an order saying that because i
14
didn't file a memorandum that obviously wasn't
15
necessary if it was settled, was decided against
16
my client. That this is now being used as a
17
precedent in this case, is mind boggling.
18
I intend to file --
19
THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, lS he
20
correct?
21
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
I wasn't privy to those
22
discussions. All I can do is look into it, and
23
I don~t know if this order, particularly, was
24
appealed. I haven't any knowledge that it was
25
reversed.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
In due deference to opposing counsel --
2
THE COURT:
(INAUDIBLE) I was the one
3
who entered that order. I can make my decision
4
based on what's in front of me.
5
It may be different, it may be the same.
6
I don't know.
7
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Even not relying on that
8
order
9
We would cite the case of Florida League
10
of Cities vs. Administration Commission, which
11
is at 586 So.2d, 397.
12
It basically says in generic law, lS
13
that in order to provide adequate notice, the
14
notice doesn't have to track any particular
15
language or recite statutory provisions
16
verbatim, so long as it informs the effected
17
party of its rights.
18
This notice is more than adequate, and I
19
think the Special Master can see today that
20
there is nothing vague about this. Nobody is
21
mystified by this.
It's overcrowding.
22
Everybody knows what this was issued for, and
23
this lS an administrative proceeding. This is
24
not a criminal case in which we have to set
25
forth specific facts supporting every element of
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
our case.
2
This is an administrative proceeding and
3
4
THE COURT: The standard is clear and
5
convincing evidence.
6
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Well, I'm not talking
7
about the --
8
THE COURT:
(INAUDIBLE)
9
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
the standard. I'm
10
talking about the adequacy of the notice.
11
That's all I'm addressing by this.
12
Now as far as the substantive evidence
13
ln this case, there is no dispute that the
14
occupancy limitation on the second floor is four
15
hundred sixteen people.
16
The -- all along Lieutenant Goldberg
17
testified that there were approximately six
18
hundred people in the area, and in fact, he went
19
through that map and in that map he testified
20
there were seventy people in the lounge, three
21
hundred people on the dance floor and two
22
hundred people in the side room. That's five
23
hund~ed seventy people just in those three
24
areas. That's not the whole club.
25
Now, let's go to their witnesses.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
One of the witnesses said maybe there
2
were six hundred ten people in the club at the
3
time, plus the thirty-nine employees.
4
Another one of their witnesses said that maybe
5
there were four hundred twenty people upstairs,
6
plus the thirty-nine employees, and he specified
7
the security man -- I don't recall his name,
8
excuse me --
9
THE COURT: Was that Mr. stone?
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Mr. stone said that he
11
believed there were two hundred seventy people
12
dancing, and that is one third of the space of
13
the club.
14
That's very consistent with Lieutenant
15
Goldberg's three hundred. Two hundred seventy
16
and three hundred are pretty darn close.
17
Initially, the first witness' estimate
18
of SlX hundred ten is real close to Lieutenant
19
Goldberg's six hundred.
20
Now as far as the clickers -- you can
21
clearly see that the clickers do not determine
22
how many people went upstairs and how many
23
peopre went downstairs. We have also heard
24
testimony from their witness, who I believe was
25
Mr. Guillen, that people when they hear a
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
popular song, bop upstairs, they run upstairs
2
for that popular song.
3
Additionally, Mr. Guillen testified that
4
twice on that evening in question, he notified
5
the manager that the place was overcrowded.
6
Therefore, all of the evidence in this
7
case points to that there was a violation,
8
namely more than four hundred sixteen people
9
upstairs at 2:40 a.m. on the morning in
10
question.
11
THE COURT: Thank you. Is there
12
anything else?
13
MR. SWITKES: Could I just make two
14
quick points?
15
THE COURT: Please.
16
MR. SWITKES: Number one, the Nenn vs.
17
Sun Country Case I specifically referred to
18
above, stands for the proposition that even if
19
in that case the homeowners association had
20
actual notice and filed timely appeals, if there
21
is a defect in the charging document and the
22
notification document, the because of the strict
23
compriance with statutory notices, it fails on
24
its face. The fact that they had actual notice
25
is insufficient.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
In fact --
2
THE COURT: What is the defect you are
3
referring to? Point it out to me, please.
4
MR. SWITKES: Okay. Can I steal the
5
citation? (INAUDIBLE) the original so I can go
6
through that (INAUDIBLE)
7
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I've got a copy.
8
MR. SWITKES:
(INAUDIBLE) I got this
9
(INAUDIBLE) under my closing argument.
10
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE)
11
MR. SWITKES: (INAUDIBLE)
12
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I thought that was his
13
closing argument.
14
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(INAUDIBLE) The
15
original citation.
16
THE COURT: I have a copy of it.
17
MR. SWITKES: On the back side, Your
18
Honor
19
THE COURT: I don't have the back side.
20
(LAUGHTER)
21
Thank you.
22
MR. SWITKES: If you go down to
23
Paragraph Three --
24
THE COURT: Three?
25
MR. SWITKES: One, two, three, four --
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
on Paragraph Four it starts with failure to pay.
2
THE COURT: Yes.
3
MR. SWITKES: On the last line it says,
4
"A waiver of the violators right to contest,"
5
and the statute says specifically, "appeal".
6
The verbiage again, the City --
7
THE COURT:
(INAUDIBLE) Wait a minute.
8
Where it says, "A waiver of the right to
9
contest or not".
10
MR. SWITKES:
It should say, "Appeal".
11
When they write the statute they should be able
12
to copy them on citations.
13
THE COURT: Your response, Mr.
14
Goldstein?
15
MR. GOLDSTEIN: My response is that the
16
notice doesn't have to be the same type of
17
notice as in a criminal case.
18
Let me see the citation.
19
Basically, the citation says that they
20
were cited for overcrowded conditions in excess
21
of the occupancy load. It points to the 14-31,
22
which is the one that talks about
it's the
23
sect~on that talks about occupancy loads
24
It says that they have the right to
25
appeal it within ten days.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
I just don't see his argument. I don't
2
-- I mean, this is --
3
I have seen a lot of municipal notices.
4
This is not the first municipality I have worked
5
for and this is pretty good.
6
MR. SWITKES: Your Honor, I would object
7
to his personal testifying of jobs that he's
8
done.
9
THE COURT: Sustained.
10
MR. GOLDSTEIN: This is a pretty good
11
notice.
12
THE COURT:
In your opinion?
13
MR. GOLDSTEIN: In my opinion.
14
MR. SWITKES: In my opinion, a real good
15
one would cite the language of the ordinance,
16
Your Honor, and I'd like to
17
THE COURT: Well, an excellent one would
18
actually track it. A good one would put the
19
person on notice, and that's how I have found in
20
the past and I will continue to do.
21
MR. SWITKES:
I'd like to have
22
The issue is whether or not -- I'm
23
sorry, do you want to submit something?
24
MR. SWITKES: I'd like to have these
25
marked, Your Honor. This
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
THE COURT: Go ahead.
2
The issue and my position, and actually
3
the same position I held in the case, was -- in
4
the ruling I made in Case JA, and I'll only deal
5
with that portion of the ruling that I consider
6
relevant in this case.
7
In the issue that was before in Case
8
JAH-97165, that portion of the ruling that I
9
feel is relevant to this case was the issue of
10
whether or not the language of the ordinance --
11
I'm sorry, the language in the citation -- if
12
the language in the citation was sufficient to
13
put the violator on notice as to his rights to
14
appeal as his rights to contest the violation.
15
I'm going to make a similar ruling that,
16
ln fact, the language is sufficient.
17
Now, that allows me to go to the heart
18
of the case. I am going to find as follows.
19
I'm going to find for the City, and
20
these are the reasons.
21
I am going to find that first of all, I
22
found to be -- the two most credible witnesses
23
to be Mark stone, on behalf of the violator. In
24
fact, as I went through the numbers, I found
25
that there is a certain amount of agreement
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
between the violator's witnesses or witness and
2
the City.
3
Mr. stone indicated in his testimony
4
that there were two hundred seventy people on
5
the dance floor, a hundred fifty people in a
6
room on that same -- we're talking about the
7
second floor because that's the issue in front
8
of us -- and there were thirty people at the
9
concession for a total of four hundred fifty
10
people. That did not include any support
11
personnel.
12
Additionally, if you look at the
13
comparison numbers represented by the City, you
14
had three hundred four that was presented by the
15
inspector on the dance floor, two hundred in the
16
room and seventy at the concession, for a total
17
of five hundred seventy people.
18
Now, obviously, there is a difference of
19
one hundred twenty people. Now, that number did
20
not include, or did not -- well, mayor may not
21
have included support personnel. There is a
22
discrepancy of one hundred twenty people.
23
But the fact of the matter is, both
24
numbers are well over the four hundred sixteen
25
required.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
The other remaining issue in my mind was
2
how do you deal with the issue of a temporary
3
increase? And as I see it, the section that was
4
alluded to by Mr. Switkes, Section 9-1.7.2, is
5
totally irrelevant.
6
If find it is not germane to the issue,
7
that that section is for the purposes -- for the
8
purpose of a building who intends to increase
9
the load, and it outlines very briefly what
10
might be the basis for that.
11
In the absence of any testimony as to
12
the violator providing the necessary aisles and
13
exits, which I did not hear, for such an
14
increase I feel that that section is not
15
relevant.
16
I also found some inconsistencies that I
17
need to point out for the purpose of the record.
18
Now that I found inconsistencies between the
19
City -- testimony presented by the City and
20
testimony presented by the violator.
21
One, I found it inconsistent that when
22
they would go through the trouble of having a
23
coun~ and going through the trouble of having a
24
count of comp used, reduced used, but not have
25
an idea at what time, how many people had exited
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
the premises, even though they had a total count
2
of how many people were there.
3
I also found it inconsistent that they
4
had a large number of people waiting outside
5
during the period in question, but there was
6
there had only been eight hundred fifty-two that
7
entered the premises, all night long for
8
approximately a six-hour period.
9
Those were some of the inconsistencies
10
that I was able to pick up immediately.
11
I found the testimony to be of the
12
Mr. Marcello Guillen and Mr. Mauricio Rodriguez
13
to be very limited and limited to the sole task
14
they had before them.
15
I found that the testimony of Lieutenant
16
Goldberg to be, at best, an estimate.
17
Therefore, I actually relied more heavily on the
18
testimony of Mr. Stone in coming to a
19
conclusion, because he was able to tell me in a
20
much more articulate manner, exactly how he came
21
up with a count.
22
And, that's my ruling.
23
There is, in my understanding -- there
24
is a fine that has to be paid?
25
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes.
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
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1
THE COURT: And the fine amount is what?
2
Two hundred or five hundred?
3
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think this is a -- I
4
think they have paid part of the citation. I
5
think it's a five hundred
6
THE COURT: So it's a five hundred
7
dollar fine?
8
MR. GOLDSTEIN: What's your
9
understanding, Bob?
10
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
( INAUDIBLE)
11
THE COURT: I have two in front of me.
12
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
13
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Five hundred.
14
MR. GOLDSTEIN: It's a five hundred on
15
the ticket --
16
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Five hundred
17
dollars.
18
THE COURT: I will find on behalf of the
19
City and find the violator has ten days, roughly
20
-- because I have to leave time for an appeal.
21
We'll make it a date certain of -- today is
22
October
we're in October -- today is October
23
21st?'
24
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.
25
THE COURT: So, we'll put it at November
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
164
1
we'll make it November 28th to pay the fine.
2
If not, it will serve as a lien on the property
3
and are there any other fees or costs associated
4
with this hearing, Lisa?
No. They paid the
5
LISA
6
Administrative Hearing fee
7
THE COURT: Have they paid it?
Yes. It has to be paid
8
LISA
9
at (INAUDIBLE).
10
THE COURT: Okay.
11
Thank you. So let's go on to the next
12
case.
13
Do you want to take a break and come
14
back this afternoon?
15
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.
16
THE COURT: What time do we come back,
17
Lisa?
( INAUDIBLE)
18
LISA
19
(LUNCHEON RECESS)
20
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884
165
CERTIFICATE OF REPORT
I, RITA BERNSTEIN, do hereby certify that I
transcribed the foregoing excerpt of the proceedings at the
time and place hereinabove set forth, and that the
foregoing pages numbered from 1 to 164, inclusive,
constitute a true and correct transcription of
tape recordings
of the proceedings at said hearing.
WITNESS MY HAND at Miami, Dade County, Florida,
/7/ -C-Ct.../
this~ day of December, 1997.
/}
C'"i~,.f . ~ ,~
> -{, '----<--~(/ /I;:.).-C ~7~t:.,~/
RtTA BERNSTEIN
I
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC.
13899 Biscayne Boulevard - Miami, Florida 33181
(305) 944-9884