DRB 22894 - verbatim transcript1
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CITY OF MIAMI BEACH
DESIGN REVIEW BOARD
11 City of Miami Beach City Hall
3rd Floor, Cit-y Commission Chambers
12 1700 Convention Center Drive
Miami Beach, Florida 33139
13 March 6, 2012
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9:44 a.m. to 11:33 a.m.
Item No. 22894 -South Pointe Park
Transcribed from a CD By:
24 Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR
25
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APPEARANCES:
JASON HAGOPIAN, CHAIRMAN
LILIA MEDINA
CAROL HOUSEN
SERAJ SABA
MICKEY MINAGORRI
JOHN OLDENBURG
City of Miami Beach Assistant
Director of Parks & Recreation
RHONDA GRACIE
10 City of Miami Beach Landscape Architect
11 HILDA FERNANDEZ
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City of Miami Beach Assistant City Manager
KEVIN SMITH
Director of Parks & Recreation
WILLIAM CARY
CMB Assistant Director of Planning Department
THOMAS MOONEY
CMB Preservation and Design Manager
DENNIS LAVA
Staff to Art in Public Places
ALSO PRESENT
Jean Culick
Larry Weiman
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MR. MOONEY: The next item is DRB File
Number 22894. This is 1 Washington Avenue, South Pointe
Park, and the City of Miami Beach is requesting design
review approval for an off-leash dog area within the
western portion of South Pointe Park.
At the direction of the Commission, two
options are being presented to the Design Review Board for
the creation of an off-leash dog area. We have members of
the Public Works Department Stuff who will make the
presentation and better explain it.
Staff has recommended that Area 3, which
would be the area proposed to be around the Art in Public
Lighthouse sculpture not be permitted, and instead Areas 1
and 2 be the areas that are approved for the dog leash
area, and that if a hedge is required, that the hedge be
maintained at a height not to exceed 24 inches.
MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, just for the
benefit of our new member, the design for South Pointe
Park is probably one of the most unique, you know,
oceanfront park designs perhaps in the world.
On its east end, the park meets the
transition from an ocean marine environment, from a
natural environment into an urban environment.
The master plan for the park was very
carefully designed by George Hargreaves Associates, one of
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1 the most, kind of outstanding, you know, landscape
2 designers in the United States, done many major parks
3 throughout the states, and in recognition of the fact that
4 Miami Beach is a city which doesn't have many hills, and
5 doesn't have any high points, he created this whole
6 concept of a serpentine dune, to become an elevated
7 walkway, to help make the transition from the natural
8 environment of the ocean and marine environment, into the
9 urban environment
10 So, on the east side you have the ocean. On
11 the south side you have the incredible, you know,
12 Government Cut, with, you know 120, 150-foot, yo·u know,
13 high cruise ships, you know, floating by. So people are
14 only not looking at the park from street level, they're
15 looking at it from above, they're looking down upon it.
16 So, the whole design of the park was done in
17 a very kind of comprehensive manner, to provide people the
18 ability to go up to 14-feet in height above the park and
19 see vistas changing as you meander along the serpentine
20 trail.
21 At one point you're looking out to the
22 north, when you first enter onto the beach, onto the
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serpentine walk, from the Washington Avenue extension,
from the --excuse me, from the --yes, it is the
Washington Avenue --no, it's the Ocean Drive extension,
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1 you're looking out, you know, to the north, along the
2 coastline, and then you switch back, and you're looking
3 out over --you know, out over Fisher Island, then you're
4 looking back toward the City, and then you're looking down
5 toward Biscayne Bay, then you're looking back out to the
6 east, and then you descend back down to beach level again.
7 So, the park has different zones and
8 different areas, and the concept was to literally, you
9 know, create that transition, from the beach, to natural
10 dunes, to the formatted serpentine dune, and then the,
11 into the more multi-purpose use, gardens and meadows, as
12 we transition to the west, eventually to the point where
13 we arrive at the incredible new Obstinate Lighthouse,
14 which is another public art project approved by the Board,
15 by, you know, Tobias Rehberger, the very, you know, well
16 known, well established German sculpture, and so now the
17 Board has always been very concerned about preserving the
18 integrity of the park.
19 We had to do a redesign of the playground
20 area, because the playground equipment was not up to the
21 standard that it should have been. It began to
22 deteriorate very quickly, and that was completely
23 replaced. Rhonda Gracie, who is here, did the complete
24 redesign of that, and selected all the furnishings, and we
25 actually got in canopy structures to provide shade and
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all, and that came out beautifully, and it works
beautifully with the architecture of the concession
building.
The Art in Public Places piece, the
Obstinate Lighthouse, is in the location that was
identified by the, by Hargreaves Consultants for the park,
and that was the approved location by the Design Review
Board as well.·
Ironically, that ended up being the interim
location for the dog park, the off-leash dog area, and so
that's one of the three options that are there for your
consideration today.
Staff obviously believes that's the worst
possible option, because you really even though the dog
park is only going to be, you know, during certain hours
of the day, the off-leash area, we just don't feel it
would be at all appropriate to, you know, place a dog
park, off-leash dog park necessarily around a public art
piece, where you want to have children be able to come up
to it at all times and look up at those, you know,
incredible rainbow of colors painted on the undersides of
the cylinders that create that, that lighthouse feature.
And so in looking very carefully at how to
do this, how to create an off-leash dog area, you know,
for part-time use in the park, we worked very closely with
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1 the Park's Department, and we feel that their, their basic
2 inclination to locate the dog, off-leash dog area to the
3 --directly to the east of the Washington, Washington
4 Plaza, the extension area, either between that, and then
5 the one smaller walkway that bisects that kind of meadow
6 area of the park, is really the most logical, because it's
7 the most convenient to people that are coming in from
8 elsewhere in the area south of 5th, to walk their dogs in
9 the park, so it's readily, they can get in, they can get
10 out easily.
11 It's not the major destination areas. The
12 major destinations areas of the park are further to the
13 east. You're going to have --the board has already
14 approved the construction of the new pier, as well. ·So
15 that the natural gravitation of traffic is to the --you
16 know, toward the east in the park, except for those that
17 are coming around from the marina, or going to the marina
18 as they're going to look at the lighthouse in itself. So
19 we think that's really the logical location
20 The next issue is, you know, how do you
21 delineate or define what area is for off-leash purposes?
22 I think that we can look at that either way. I mean,
23 obviously Staff's preference would be to have no hedge,
24 whatever, because we don't want to create another design
25 element in the park, which was literally intended to be,
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1 you know, very simple and smooth and straightforward, so
2 all the things that happen around the park are what really
3 make the park, you know, such an executory experience, and
4 so we're not recommending, we're not saying, yes, go,
5 ahead and approve a hedge.
6 What we're saying is that if the Parks
7 Department finds that in order to delineate the area for
8 the off-leash dog area, if it's necessary to do that so
9 that owners of dogs know the area that they're limited to,
10 that's something that they can do in the future, if.they
11 wish to do it .
12 So we've kind of left that option open, and
13 --but we would absolutely recommend that if we do have
14 the hedge, that it should be no more than, kept at no more
15 than 24 inches in height, otherwise it's going to become a
16 major landscape feature, which we do not feel would be
17 appropriate in a park of this character.
18 So, we're recommending kind of the
19 combination of Site --was it Site 2 and 3? Or 1 a-nd 2,
20 it's 1 and 2, I'm sorry, 1 and 2 combined, rather than the
21 Lighthouse site. So that would be our suggestion to the
22 board, and Rhonda and John and Kevin can further, you
23 know, elaborate.
24 MR. SMITH: Good morning. For the record,
25 Kevin Smith, director of parks and Recreation.
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1 Thank you, William, for the introduction.
2 The item that we have brought before you
3 today was well explained by William.
4 Just a bit of back history. We've been
5 doing a pilot program now in South Pointe Park for an
6 off-leash area for about 18 months. It has worked very
7 successfully. The residents have come together and sort
8 6f monitor their own.
9 The operational hours right now for South
10 Pointe off-leash area in the --it's currently ~n the
11 west, in Area Number 2, that William was referencing, are
12 Monday through Friday, from sun --I'm sorry, sunrise to
13 sun --sunrise to 10:00 a.m. daily, and then from 5:00
14 4:00 until 7:00 on Monday through Friday only, and the
15 remainder of the time, the area in question, or the areas
16 in question are remained open for public use, public --
17 well, it's all public, but for public access and other
18 uses of the park.
19 So, particularly those hours are the
20 off-leash areas. The remainder of the time the dogs are
21 to be retained --be maintained on leashes and are
22 controlled under the owners on leashes. We have security
23 in the park, Code Enforcement is in the park. Our staff
24 are in the park also.
25 So it is something that started out as a
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1 test program and has worked out very effectively. So,
2 just as a little bit of history in· that area. So, to help
3 you make your decisions.
4 MR. CARY: Thank you.
5 MS. GRACIE: Good morning.
6 MR. CARY: Good morning.
7 MS. GRACIE: Rhonda Gracie with Parks and
8 Recreation.
9 The three sites initially, and I agree with
10 Staff with regard to the lighthouse location, which is on
11 Site Number 3, the reason that was included in the
12 beginning was because that was the original site for the
13 pilot program initially, and that kind of set the tone as
14 to the square footage for the off-leash area.
15 That site was relocated to Area Number 1,
16 when the construction of the lighthouse was done. So we
17 were asked to present the three locations, and then we've
18 included Area 2, which essentially is Area 1, and
19 extending that to the sidewalk, the cut area. Opposed to
20 having a division down the middle of that grassy area, we
21 wanted to created natural boundaries using the existing
22 sidewalk that you can see, that's to the east, along with
23 the partial serpentine to the north, and then of course
24 you have the Washington Avenue Plaza to the west, and then
25 the --along Government Cut, where it's a raised wall and
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1 designed as a sea wall.
2 So, by doing that, we increase the area for
3 the dog owners, almost double it. However, there is a lot
4 of trees there. So the area that the dogs run in is
5 actually within the grassy area inside of the treeline, so
6 that they don't end up --they tend to want to loop when
7 they're running, and this way it will prevent them from,
8 like, actually running and banging into some of the trees
9 and knocking themselves out.
10 So, the actual area --I have seen it
11 happen. The actual area will be closer, when you discount
12 those trees to, the actual area that they currently have,
13 which is about 18, 1900 square feet, even though
14 technically if you include the tree area it's much larger.
15 Also by allowing us to extend it to those
16 natural barriers, we believe that if --we would not
17 necessarily need a hedge, but if needed, it would be a
18 very low lying hedge, it would be --Ilex Schilling
19 (phonetic) would be our recommendation, which is a Florida
20 native shrub. It is highly salt tolerant. It grows
21 extremely slow. It can handle extreme conditions, the
22 high PH, and we would look at rec, you know, maintaining
23 that at about 24 inches or so.
24 At full maturity, which takes about 10
25 years, it would get to about 36 inches in height, at the
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1 maximum. It takes to sheering, so it would be easy for us
2 to maintain at a lower level, if. that were needed at a
3 later time.
4 So, we personally prefer taking it to that
5 sidewalk. If we end up with just using and dividing and
6 going with Area 1, then I believe that you would end up
7 needing some kind of division down the middle of the
8 grassy area to kind of de-mark where that location is, and
9 we'd prefer not to have that line through the middle of
10 the turf area.
11 MS. FERNANDEZ: If I may, Chair Members of
12 the Commission --of the Committee? Hilda Fernandez from
13 the City Managers Office.
14 The off-leash program has been working now a
15 little over a year, relatively successfully with
16 enforcement at South Pointe Park.
17 Just to clarify, as William has, this is not
18 a designated dog park. Dog parks are fenced in
19 environments. We have five of those throughout the city,
20 six if you count the smaller one on Collins Avenue. This
21 is a designated off-leash area. So, it's very important
22 for us that it is clear, that the majority of the time
23 this area is available for any other type of use.
24 The idea of including a hedge around that
25 area was the Commission's suggestion during a public
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1 discussion of the pilot project, and that is why that item
2 is before you today.
3 If we had continued, obviously, without the
4 need for a hedge, we wouldn't be here before you today,
5 but at the end of the day there was a request, during one
6 of the Commission meetings, that we consider placing a
7 hedge. We explained that the placement of the hedge would
8 require DRB cons~deration, and that is why we are here
9 today.
10 The Commission also did not give us specific
11 direction as to which of the three they preferred. They
12 said bring it to the DRB, and have the DRB suggest, based
13 on the possibility of a hedge, et cetera, which of the
14 three locations would be preferable.
15 So we are here today asking for your
16 consideration of, if there was going to be a hedge, what
17 would be the preferable location, or what would be the
18 preferable location as a whole.
19 This would go back to our Commission for
20 them to consider your recommendation, in terms of the
21 potential location, as the Commission has to consider
22 whether to make this a permanent program at South Pointe
23 Park.
24 What is very important for us is whatever,
25 if there is a decision to put a hedge, and we can come
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back with an explanation that it might not be necessary
2 with Option 2 to put a hedge, which is the larger west
3 lawn, clearly, you know, the expectation would be, if
4 there is a hedge, that it be done in such a way that makes
5 it clear and obvious that the general public can access
6 this space at any time, whether there are dogs there
7 during the off-leash hours, or even during the other hours
8 of the day, not create a barrier that makes it seem as if
9 it's a fenced in area, because that's not what it's
10 intended to be, which is why it's recommended to be a low
11 hedge, that there be multiple openings around the hedge,
12 to invite people to go into the space during the day, when
13 that is not an off-leash area, and they can certainly go
14 in the space when it is an off-leash area if they want to,
15 but that is one of the concerns we had, to continue to
16 make sure everyone understood this is intended to be an
17 off-leash area, not an enclosed dog park, but rather an
18 amenity to that entire park, and that entire community.
19 Thank you very much for your consideration
20 today.
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MR. CARY: Also, Mr. Chairman, Dennis Lava
(phonetic) is here today. Dennis is Staff to the Art in
Public Places Committee, and so if you have any questions
relative to the site that surrounds the Art in Public
Places, the Obstinate Lighthouse, Dennis is available, if
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1 you'd like to ask him anything.
2 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you.
3 Is there anybody from the public that wishes
4 to speak on this application?
5 MS. CULICK: Yes, I do.
6 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Please approach the
7 microphone. State your name and address.
8 MS. CULICK: Hello. My name is Jean Culick
9 (phonetic) . I live at 400 South Pointe Drive. I'm a
10 13-year resident, and I can explain to you, I walk daily
11 in the park, and I love this park. I saw it constructedj
12 and I'm afraid that I have to dispute the facts that have
13 been presented.
14 The multiple use of the park has been
15 seriously unbalanced by the extension, especially the
16 December extension of sunset to 10:00 a.m., and 4:00p.m.
17 to 7:00 p.m.
18 You are fully aware that in this climate,
19 that --those are the best hours of the day. People,
20 elderly people, the Orthodox community nearby, used to go
21 and sit under the trees in the afternoon, read their
22 books, people from the nursing homes were wheeled out by
23 the attendants or their relatives, young couples,
24 students, nannies teaching little children how to walk on
25 the grass, which is a soft fall for the babies, all these
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people have been driven away by the heavy pollution caused
by this influx of 50, 60 dogs, over six hours a day,
urinating, polluting the ground.
In effect, the weekend hours, and those
other non-restricted hours are a danger to the public,
because in this climate, with no rain, the ureal salts
clings to the soil, and to the grass, and the vestiges of
the feces, obviously, and this is dangerous.
I would like you to put up some notices to
say to people, do not use, do not go into that area. It
is heartbreaking for me to see people having a birthday,
spread out, and sitting on that grass, which is so heavily
polluted. I have just seen, just before that, the dogs
running there.
It is a really grave situation, on top of
which the dog owners are definitely not self-policing.
They are disdainful and shabbily rude to the security
guards, who are doing an impossible job.
There is no way to delineate these
boundaries, there is no way. The dog owners' attitude,
and this is the least rude one I have heard is, what's the
difference? They have been unleashing as soon as they
enter by Washington Avenue, or by Continuum, or by the
Beach Road.
As for the marina, they're coming in from
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there, and they consider the Lighthouse area as still an
2 off-leash park.
3 If any member of the public, or a security
4 guard said, that dog should be on a leash, as I did to a
5 young man, whose dog --he was talking on the phone, the
6 dog had defecated by the rocks, where all the brides, and
7 their quinces, and the tourists take pictures, it's the
8 heaviest usage in the evenings, 4:00 to 7:00, sunset time,
9 tourists are coming to photograph, there is throngs of
10 people, I said to him, are you aware --he was furious
11 with me, and gave me a mouthful.
12 So, you know, it sounds wonderful in theory,
13 but this is not appropriate for a world class park, which
14 is so beautiful, has varied walks. The dog owners should,
15 in fact, be walking their dogs. In fact, they're sitting
16 on the berm, that lovely little hilly area, and I dispute
17 that that is not a main entrance, because parents and
18 little kids come running in, and because there is a lack
19 of hills, they run up there and they tumble down. I mean,
20 this is such a delight to see, I see it from my balcony, I
21 have an overview of this, a grandstand view. You are all
22 welcome to come and have a drink and watch this if you
23 don't want to go to the park, but it is, it is really sad
24 to see how this park will deteriorate.
25 The Park's Department does a brilliant job,
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1 they are trying so hard, and they've maintained it
2 beautifully, but we know that the urine--yes, let's give
3 them applause, but the urine --yeah --but the urine, the
4 urine, as anybody who has had a lawn, and whose neighbor's
5 dog uses it regularly, stains brown. So, we're going to
6 have a dust bowl there.
7 It is really a very serious situation, and
8 it is unbalanced, and you cannot possibly hope to cope
9 with four --two-foot hedges, two-foot hedges. They're
10 Great Danes, they're standard Poodles, they're Alsatians,
11 there are big Labradors. I've seen two big Labradors
12 streaking out from that shrubby area behind the berms, and
13 the lady had a long dress, and she was trying to control
14 those two dogs. They were out by the Smith & Wollensky
15 drop~ It is very dangerous. The only good thing about
16 the lighthouse area, was that it was furthest away from
17 the cars.
18 Now, the berm, and the area where all these
19 dogs are scurrying around, is 30 yards, those shrubberies,
20 the hedge you're talking about is 30 yards away from the
21 main roadway. The dogs are out of control.
22 The owners are sitting on the berm, chatting
23 with each other, and there is a snobbery between the dog
24 owners, because most of them don't want their dogs to mix
25 with the main lawn users. So they're the ones who have
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taken to the berms, they're sitting there with their backs
2 to the cars, the dogs are running over the hills, into the
3 shrubberies, round, back again, and what's more, these big
4 dogs and little dogs are fighting. We are going to have
5 the most grotesque accidents, a mixture of cars, little
6 babies, all these big and small dogs.
7 It is really ridiculous that you are
8 considering giving over this wonderful vista of green
9 lawns and coconut plantations that were in visage, as
10 Mr. Cary explained so well, by this well classed
11 architect, and you're giving it over, the most expensive
12 pieces of real estate. 33139, didn't they just say that
13 was the top ten ZIP codes in the country, we're giving it
14 over to the dogs. You will be a laughing stock. That
15 park will not be a pleasant place.
16 Thank you very much for listening to me.
17 I'm not used to talking to the public, but I hope I've put
18 my point here.
19 MR. CARY: Thank you for your comments.
20 there anybody else that would like to speak on this
21 application?
22 Please approach the microphone, and state
23 your name and address.
24 MR. WEIMAN: Good morning. My name is
25 Larry Weiman (phonetic). I'm a resident at 50 South
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1 Pointe, and I'm also on the board of the SoBe K-9
2 organization, and we were involved with the Parks
3 Department, and with the counsel in the implementation and
4 the operation of the program.
5 I'm not sure that this is the appropriate
6 forum to be talking about the nature of the dog park being
7 there or not, I'm not sure that's what's before us today.
8 I think it's more an issue of location of the park, and
9 design of the hedge, if there is to be a hedge.
10 From the standpoint --so, to address those
11 first, from the standpoint of the majority of the dog
12 owners, from my personal standpoint, the location that
13 Parks has suggested, and sort of the extension of the Area
14 2, away from the lighthouse, we think is correct, we think
15 it's the best practical place for it to be.
16 The lighthouse area has come out
17 extraordinarily well, and as someone who is in the park
18 four or five times a day, I can tell you it really is one
19 of the great pieces of urban park design, the sculpture is
20 wonderful, and the use of that area now has grown, so that
21 I don't think it would be appropriate to relocate the dogs
22 back there.
23 The success of these dog off-leash programs
24 is generally a question of trying to minimize the contact
25 between the dogs and the other users of the park, and some
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1 of the issues you just heard described, I think are very
2 much the exception to the rule, and Parks, and I think
3 Hilda can verify, that the level of complaint has fallen
4 dramatically from the initial operation of the pilot
5 program, and I think even further since we've relocated to
6 that middle point, because there is a natural separation
7 with the edge of the cut walk, and with the walks that
8 surround it, and that separation tends to minimize
9 opportunities for passersby, people on bicycles, people on
10 skateboards, mothers with children, to come in contact
11 with the dogs, and while a 24-inch hedge is not going to
12 contain a Great Dane, they do actually, if you're there,
13 and I am twice a day, if you're there, the dogs do
14 actually obey and stay contained within those boundaries,
15 even that little, I guess, 18-inches, or 20-inches, that
16 the cut walk is raised up over the grass area, tends to
17 keep the dogs in boundary.
18 Now, while there are clearly cases where the
19 dogs leave the boundary and come back, or leave the
20 boundary and are called back, by and large, if you've been
21 there and seen the operation of it, it's become a
22 tremendous community event, a tremendous source of people
23 coming together, neighbors knowing each other.
24 There are, in fact, 40 or 50 dogs at any
25 given time in the evening, and it really has been a
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l tremendous use of the park, tremendous community, at a
2 time when there are plenty of areas of the park for people
3 to do other things. It's one of many grass and public
4 areas there.
5 We've worked closely with the SoBe and
6 Mothers Committee, and they don't have any objections to
7 it. SoBe, itself, hasn't had any objections to the way
8 it's operating, because there is plenty of opportunity for
9 people to migrate over to the playground, or to the other
10 open grass areas between the playground and the cut, and
11 so from an operational standpoint, I think it's working
12 quite a bit better than you would have inferred from the
13 prior comments, and the enforcement matters are things
14 that we, as dog owners, do take strongly, we do try to
15 self-police our other members.
16 One does not observe any large amount of
17 unclean dog waste there. The park is sprinkled, so I
18 imagine that some of the problems that you just heard
19 alleged about the dog urine there, are not really an
20 issue, and even though the grass is taking use from the
21 dogs running, ~nd from people using it, from my
22 observation it's no different than the use that the grass
23 is taking on the other side, where it's used by people
24 picnicking, and soccer, and the other activities that go
25 on in the park.
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So, in summary, the dog owners themselves
2 are very happy to keep it where it is. I don't believe it
3 should be relocated back to the lighthouse either, and if
4 the board is amenable to the placement of the shrubbery,
5 at the request of a couple of the Commissioners, we have
6 no objections to that, and think· that the design that
7 Parks has put forward is fine.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you for your comments.
10 MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I should just
11 clarify for the board, that the City Commission, of
12 course, has to take into consideration the needs of all of
13 the users of the park, and the issue of whether there
14 should or should not be an off-leash area in the park is a
15 policy decision by the City Commission, not by this board,
16 and what this board has been requested to look at is what;
17 of the three areas that have been identified, are the best
18 areas for the off-leash dog area, and what the --the
19 configuration, or conditions of that area should be.
20 It's not this Board's responsibility to make
21 a policy as to whether or not there can be, and you can
22 see there are very excellent and passionate arguments on
23 both sides. There, you know, always will be, and both
24 speakers have spoken brilliantly in representing their own
25 perspectives.
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1 MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of this item,
2 we will have to pick Area 1, 2 or 3, that's what you're
3 telling me?
4 MR. CARY: You'll have to select one of the
5 three areas, or the combination of 1 and 2, which is the
6 recommendation of the Staff, and I think which is the area
7 that the Parks Department supports, because it's
8 delineated by the cut walk, which is 16-inches above the
9 meadow area, and as you said, that was a specific design
10 dementia that was selected, so that you could have seating
11 along the --along the cut walk, to look both out to the
12 cut, and look into the meadow area, and then the three
13 walkways would define the other three sides.
14 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. We will do our best to
15 keep that in consideration.
16 It's a little --I mean, for me, personally,
17 it's going to be a little bit tricky, because I see all
18 the issues that both sides have been talking about, and
19 I'll talk a little bit about it when it's my turn to
20 speak, but I'd like to hear from my other board members.
21 Okay. Carol.
22 MS. HOUSEN: I have one question of Staff,
23 and I do understand, thank you, Mr. Cary for clarifying
24 our position, that we're here to help select the proper
25 location, and approve the shrubbery that's going over it,
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1 but I have a question of Staff. What's the total acreage
2 of South Pointe Park?
3 MR. CARY: Is it 18 acres?
4 MS. FERNANDEZ: I think it's 22 acres.
5 MR. CARY: 22 acres?
6 MS. FERNANDEZ: But of course you've got the
7 areas that are dunes and you've got the buildings.
8 MS. HOUSEN: Right, right. No, because I
9 totaled up the three areas, which came up to 70,000 square
10 feet, which is just under 1.2 acres of proposal off-leash
11 dogs.
12 MS. FERNANDEZ: And we wouldn't recommend
13 all three. We're just looking for one area in particular.
14 MS. HOUSEN: Right. Okay. No, no, that was
15 my question. I wasn't sure of the total of the park.
16 Well, I would never think to recommend all
17 three, and never would I put it by the public art, which
18 is the lighthouse, but I think my personal opinion on 1
19 and 2, is just to take into consideration, it should be
20 delineated whether it be shrubby or a fence, only because
21 it's not a dog park, and elderly people, and children --I
22 go out with grandchildren, one is horrified of dogs, the
23 amount of people that we're loosing in the park, and I'm
24 an animal supporter, but I think that we need to not be
25 taking away the prime of our park for the dogs. I think
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1 either designate part of it for dogs, that's not our
2 opinion here, I mean, it's not our position to make that
3 selection, but that needs to be considered in choosing the
4 one area of the off-leash, because it could be an unsafe
5 situation to an elderly or a child, and I think the City
6 needs to take that into consideration. It's just my point
7 of it, but I would never think to put it anywhere near
8 Area 3, that's prime property, and I think it should be
9 the people's place to share it. That's my opinion.
10 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you, Carol.
11 MS. MEDINA: Well, thank you for the
12 presentation. It is a tricky decision, in that there is a
13 high demand for an off-leash area, and there are many
14 apartment buildings there, high density condominiums. You
15 know, as a person who had a white Shepard, I am, you know,
16 in support of the use, but on the other hand, there is
17 also the issues that have been brought up by the public,
18 and so-called snobbery, and sort of non-compliance of, you
19 know, due diligence, as far as cleaning up and restricting
20 your dogs to the area.
21 First of all, I think Area Number 3 is
22 definitely off for consideration. I mean, I was there the
23 other day, it's a --the Tubias artwork, public artwork is
24 just awesome at night. During the day you have the FEC
25 you have the slip next door, where you can watch not only
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1 the Government Cut, but actually be on the edge of the
2 water there. So I think that area should not even be
3 considered.
4 I understand the rationale for having a
5 hedge now. At first I thought, well, you know, the
6 Hargreaves original plan, the master plan for the park was
7 to keep it as open as possible, but if there are issues
8 from the public, as far as folks not containing their
9 dogs, maybe --I don't know if the hedge is going to work,
10 frankly, but I think, if anything, there is some
11 ~elineation that would help keep the dogs in the area.
12 I would really want to know a little bit
13 more from the Parks Department, the monitoring and the
14 compliance, because you said that, you know, things have
15 been working well, but on the other hand we hear from the
16 public otherwise.
17 I think Area Number 1, which is where it's
18 been used now as the pilot area, would be, for me,
19 personally the preferred area. It's 18,000 square feet.
20 I don't know how that compares to, even though this is not
21 a bark park, dog park, the other seven parks that exist in
22 the area, how big are they in comparison to Area Number 1,
23 at 18,000 square feet, are they typically about the same
24 size?
25 MS. GRACIE: Most the areas within South
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1 Beach dog park per dog run are approximately that. We
2 have at Flamingo Park, we have two dog run areas, they're
3 about 20,000 square feet each. At this particular point
4 in time, they're a little bit smaller before we did the
5 expansion. At the RDA, which is right off of Collins
6 Avenue and 2nd, that space is significantly smaller, it's
7 about 6,000 square feet and it crosses the street at
8 Washington Avenue, at the dog park there at 2nd and
9 Washington, that's about 24,000 square feet. So, it's a
10. bit more.
11 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I think that ---
12 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, I was gding to say,
13 just if I may, the --in our research we found that a
14 really usable dog park is approximately one acre, or a
15 little bit more, and as a matter of fact, we just opened a
16 --or are finishing up North Shore open space, and it's
17 about that size, and we found --what we've also noticed
18 is since we opened up both areas, because of the trees
19 that are in the western section of --sort of in Area
20 Number 1, having both sections open is basically giving
21 you almost the square footage of the 18,000, when you
22 combine them, that has open space for the dogs to run, and
23 we have also found that having the open space area, and
24 expanding it a bit, it just naturally reduces the wear and
25 tear on one section. So, having it a bit more spread
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1 apart, or open has also been useable, and useful to us as
2 far as a maintenance issue.
3 MS. MEDINA: So as far as the existing trees
4 there, you're not counting in, if you're saying 18,000
5 with Area 1 and 2, you're not counting in then that area
6 where the plan --the landscape exists, as not usable, if
7 you will, because that's where the dogs would not go, is
8 that what you're saying?
9 MR. SMITH: Well, I think what we're saying
10 is that when we have observed the dogs, and the way that
11 they're using the area now, they tend --dogs tend to want
12 to open --get into an open run area. They may run
13 through the trees and, you know, but more to the point,
14 when an owner is throwing the ball, or if the dogs are
15 playing and chasing each other, they will tend to go into
16 the open spaces, where they can get some, you know, some
17 directional run, rather than kind of going in circles or
18 around the trees.
19 So, although the trees are nice to have, and
20 there is shade, and it's a nice environment for the --but
21 the time that the dog owners are using that off-leash
22 area, and I do want to stress that, there is --there are
23 times, it's not as if this is an exclusive area just for
24 the dog owners, the park is used predominately throughout
25 the day by a lot of different people, and visited
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1 throughout the day by a lot of different folks, and it's
2 not just the dog owners that go in that area. They may be
3 in that area when the times permit it. However, they are
4 not there when the times are not --you know, they are not
5 specified to do so.
6 MS. MEDINA: And the hours available here is
7 really not an issue here as well, right? We're not ---
8 MR. SMITH: No, that's a policy th~t's
9 established by the City Commission.
10 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I still think Area
11 Number 1, which has been proven to be effective, according
12 to the Parks Department, would be my preferred
13 recommendation, and with a hedge to define it somewhat.
14 MR. SMITH: If I may be clear, what we are
15 saying has proven to be effective. If you're calling
16 Area 1 the two pieces ---
17 MS. MEDINA: No, no, Area 1 ---
18 MR. SMITH: You're talking about just the
19 west section?
20 MS. MEDINA: Right.
21 MR. CARY: Maybe, it might help if, Rhonda,
22 could you joint point it out on the aerial photograph,
2 3 what Area 1 would be?
24 You probably need the travelling mike, I'm
25 sorry. If somebody can pass it to you.
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1 MS. GRACIE: Okay. So what we're talking
2 about, in Area 1 in the aerial here, Area 1 is half of
3 this lawn. Area 2 would be the entire lawn area.
4 So, as you can see, in this area, you don't
5 have as many trees that are now there. So, the area, the
6 land mass in size is significantly smaller, but the total
7 square footage includes those tree areas.
8 MS. MEDINA: Excuse me, so the total square
9 footage for Area 1 --this sheet that we have here LA 02
10 says that Area 1 is 18,000, right?
11 MS. GRACIE: Correct, Area 1 is
12 approximately 18,000 square feet, including the tree
13 areas. Area 2 would be Area 1, plus the area to the west
14 of it, taking it all the way to the sidewalk, that is a
15 combined area of 34,000 square feet. That does include
16 the tree lined area.
17 As Kevin had mentioned earlier, the AKA
18 recommends individual dog run areas in a dog park,
19 enclosed dog park to be approximately one half acre to one
20 acre. The reason being is that it makes it a little bit
21 easier for maintenance, a little less wear and tear. It
22 also is a recommended size for multiple dogs, as well as
23 being an area that is where dog owners can keep their
24 animals under both visual and voice commands, without them
25 getting too far ahead of them. You don't want it too
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1 large, and you don't it want it too small.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. MINAGORRI: I see here that these
4 hedges, proposed hedges that, you say that it would take
5 10 years for them to grow to 36 inches, but we want to
6 maintain them at 24 inches. What's the width of these
7 hedges? Because I see the proposal having, not just one
8 straight line of hedges but, like, multiple. So, what
9 would be the total width of hedges that we would have?
10 MS. GRACIE: It would end up being about two
11 and a half to three foot wide, that includes a little bit
12 of a boundary for mulch on both sides, and for edging.
13 MR. MINAGORRI: But looking at---
14 MS. GRACIE: And the hedge, yes, it would be
15 staggered rows.
16 MR. MINAGORRI: So then each of the hedges
17 would be two, to two and a half feet wide. So, we would
18 have like six or seven feet?
19 MS. GRACIE: No, you would have a maximum of
20 three feet. They're staggered
21 MR. MINAGORRI: Looking at the photo on LA
22 02, and looking at your drawings, where you would have,
23 what seems to be two hedges, what is the width of each of
24 those hedges? Because they look to be a lot wider than
25 they are higher.
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MS. GRACIE: It's a double stagger row. The
2 two rows in width would be three foot. Showing them at 18
3 inches, at about the maturity level, they may get a little
4 bit bigger, that bed line would expand at a later time.
5 When we first install them, they will end up being
6 significantly smaller.
7 MR. MINAGORRI: So we're talking about --
8 MS. GRACIE: So we're talking about ---
9 MR. MINAGORRI: 24 inch high by about
10 MS. GRACIE: Three feet.
11 MR. MINAGORRI: three feet.
12 MS. GRACIE: But in the beginning, we will
13 not even be able to find plant material greater than one
14 by one. If we're lucky, we might find some plant material
15 18 by 18. It's extremely expensive, because of the slow
16 rate. So initially you're not going to have very much
17 space at all right there.
18
19
20
MR. MINAGORRI: So --
MS. GRACIE: It's planned availability.
MR. MINAGORRI: --on the north side, how
21 come there is no hedges on that north side? Is there,
22 like, a wall?
23
24
25
MS. GRACIE: We have the raise
MR. MINAGORRI: The raise ---
MS. GRACIE: No, that's the south side,
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1 that's the Government Cut side, and that's where you
2 already have that 16 inch raise, Government Cut walk.
3 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay.
4 MS. GRACIE: I can show. that in the
5 photograph, in the one that I'm showing right now
6 MR. MINAGORRI: Yes, I see it, yes.
7 MS. GRACIE: you can see how many trees
8 there actually, and palms that are in that area.
9 MR. MINAGORRI: I see it here.
10 MS. GRACIE: And then you can kind of see in
11 this photograph here, that raised seat wall, we £eel that
12 that creates that actual barrier, and that a right, and
13 that's from that sidewalk edge, you see that shadow, that
14 creates that natural barrier, that would be about the
15 height of what the shrubs will end up being, for the
16 majority of the life span, they will eventually get to
17 about 24, but that's going to be quite some time down the
18 road
19 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay.
20 MS. GRACIE: before they'll reach that
21 maturity level.
22 MR. MINAGORRI: Two quick questions. So
23 we're keeping the landscaping intact, with all the palm
24 trees. We're just adding hedges, and then I see here,
25 like, three entrances.
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1 My question is, it's normal for these
2 animals to stay within a contained area, even if they're
3 off a leash. Is that something that the gentleman from
4 the AKA knows? I think you mentioned something, that even
5 though we're going to have these openings, how do you
6 really prevent an animal from just not running out of
7 the ---
8 MS. FERNANDEZ: Hilda Fernandez, again, from
9 the City Managers Office.
10 Frankly we can't prevent it, and I think
11 that was one of the concerns that prompted the Commission
12 to look at the concept of a hedge. When the site was the
13 area around the public art piece, you had some natural
14 barriers, you had the bay walk on one side, a walkway on
15 the one side, another walkway where the boat basin is at,
16 and then you had the rocks, so there was a natural
17 barrier.
18 We have signs, we do have signs, plenty of
19 signs on the edge of that that says off-leash hours, when
20 and how and what have you, and the dog owners would
21 generally make sure that their dogs remained within those
22 physical, natural physical barriers, which was in this
23 case just walkways, and on one side Government Cut.
24 When the decision was made to relocate, we
25 did something a little bit strange, because really we only
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1 had three demarcated areas that we could demarcate in the
2 west lawn. When we cut that west lawn in half, we had to
3 put a sign up, which was very awkward and, frankly, became
4 a safety issue.
5 So people naturally, instead of just using
6 that little corner, half of that section, started using
7 the entire section, because we didn't want to put a sign
8 in the middle of a park that people could run into. So we
9 had signs on the other areas, but they were really using
10 that entire are.a.
11 Does that mean that dogs --and I have been
12 there --that dogs don't jump up on the cut walk
13 momentarily or whatever, responsible dog owners take care
14 of their pets, and we see that everywhere. We have plenty
15 of dog parks in our City, and we continue to get
16 complaints about people letting their dogs loose, with a
17 dog park in the park, at the time they get out of the car,
18 even though they could just walk 50 feet and put the dog
19 in a, you know, in an actual dog park, they do that now.
20 So, what we find is, generally, that the dog
21 owners are --when there is a physical barrier, such as
22 whether it's a natural physical barrier, or in this case a
23 suggestion of a hedge, they tend to keep their dogs in
24 there, but at the end of the day, dogs don't read signs,
25 they're going to go wherever they're going to go. It's up
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1 to really the dog owners to figure out, hey, my dog isn't
2 where he's supposed to be.
3 We do do active enforcement at the park, not
4 just during the off-leash hours. We go during the day to
5 make sure that they're not off-leash in the off-leash
6 area. They cannot be off-leash at 2:00 in the afternoon,
7 anywhere in the --first of all, they can't be anywhere in
8 that park except with --in this location during the
9 designated hours off-leash.
10 Does that mean we don't find people in the
11 dune area? We have one particular guy on a bicycle who
12 loves to leave his dog loose all the time. We issue
13 violations. There are ticketed offenses. We work with
14 the police. We work with the park. We work with
15 sanitation, and code compliance. We do dog details at all
16 of our parks, because this is a concern for a lot of our
17 residents, but in particular on the off-leash issue in
18 South Pointe Park we do enforce.
19 But if I could just go back to, Ms. Medina
20 mentioned the issue of the 18,000 square feet, let me--
21 we had initially tried to give them a comparable space by
22 doing Option 1 when we relocated them temporarily because
23 of the construction of the Art in Public Places piece.
24 A couple of things happened. That also
25 coincided with the South Point Right of Way Project, where
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1 we took a lot of trees, and all off a sudden were able to
2 plant a lot of wonderful new palm trees in South Point
3 Park, specifically in the west lawn. So we did have
4 enhanced landscaping that has occurred, coincidently, in
5 the last year, while we were also, at a portion of which,
6 using that part of the park.
7 So we did hear from dog owners, when this
8 issue came to the Commission, where they said, that little
9 section is now so full of trees, that the open green space
10 has been diminished. So, give us the entire section, that
11 they thought they had all along, all the way to the
12 walkway, because now we have so much trees around the
13 edge, they're really, for purpose of long runs, throwing
14 the ball far, so Fitto can run, you know, whatever, 50
15 yards to get a ball, we've lost a lot, it's been
16 diminished if you leave it in that little space, with all
17 the new trees that have been planted.
18 So when we went to the Commission, we were
19 --that's one of the things we said, you know, these are
20 the options, Option 1, or take it to the walkway, we have
21 some natural boundaries, it's now walkways on all three
22 sides, and the elevated cut walk, which is a differential,
23 about the height of a hedge, on the south side, and that
24 was one of the recommendations, which is presented as
25 Option B, but why Option 1 --Option 2, rather, why
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1 Option 1 has been an issue for a lot of the --it was an
2 issue for a lot of the dog owners, because they felt
3 really the size got diminished with the new plantings.
4 Those plantings were not the original
5 plantings. If you just said linear square feet, it was
6 18,000, comparable to Art in Public Places, but when you
7 consider all the trees from open space, you know,
8 perspective, the dogs owner feel it's a little less than
9 18,000.
10 MR. MINAGORRI: One last question, Hilda --
11 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir.
12 MR. MINAGORRI: --is there any plans to do
13 any benches or anything for pet owners to sit down?
14 MS. FERNANDEZ: That would be, obviously,
15 the next issue we'd have to consider. There are
16 benches --what ends up happening with the cut walk side,
17 is that because it is elevated, people right now just sit
18 there, you know, that's where they typically sit to watch
19 their pets.
20 We haven't really talked about whether we
21 would place benches on the other side, and they sit on the
22 berm that's on the north side of it, because it is an
23
24
25
elevated berm.
You know, we did have benches around the,
you know, Art in Public Places piece, that was part of the
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1 original plan, and people sat on the elevated cut walk
2 there as well to watch their dogs, when it was in the
3 Public Art Piece, but really at this point you have a
4 natural seating area created by that elevated cut walk,
5 which made this why it made this area preferable for
6 some of the folks, because, wow, you know, we had this
7 whole area where we can sit and, you know, be with our
8 dogs, and watch our dogs, which hopefully they're doing,
9 obviously, we hope.
10 So, again, the issue right now is hedge, no
11 hedge, square hedge, you know, that's really the reason
12 why we're before you today.
13 The program worked without a hedge, but when
14 we were having to deal with a permanent location, a
15 suggestion was made, that to address some concerns, maybe
16 some low lying line hedge to create a better physical
17 barrier beyond a walkway would be preferred and, you know,
18 that's why the item is before you today.
19 MR. CARY: Again, the Staff has recommended
20 just allowing the hedge to be an option. We're not
21 recommending that you require a hedge. We're saying that,
22 let the Parks _Department, the administration see how the
23 program is working out without a hedge. If they find that
24 they need one, we put a condition in there whereby they
25 can have one, but the height should not exceed 24 inches,
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and it should be of a certain slow growing variety that is
salt tolerant and all of that.
So ---
MR. HAGOPIAN: Saraj.
MR. SABA: Good morning, and thanks for
coming.
I'm going to start by saying that I have
owned dogs before in my life, and I love animals, but I
don't have any now, and that's primarily because I have a
two year old boy, and a ten month old boy, and I have
enough excitement in my life without a dog, but the
comparison is that dogs are a lot of work for an owner,
obviously, and, you know, when you mix a dog with the
general public, and people that don't have dogs, there is
bound to be some conflicts, and that's generally why, when
you have a dog park, it's completely separate.
In most, you know, park situations, when
you're designing a park, you have --you have that sort of
a discussion before the park is designed.
You know, I wasn't involved in the design of
this park, so I can only imagine that that either wasn't
part of the discussions of designing the park, or it, you
know, wasn't important to the people at the time.
But regardless, I mean, I think, you know,
that really there needs to be another location, if there
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1 is going to be a dog park. I mean, you said it's not
2 really a dog park, but I don't really see how you can have
3 a dog park, or even a quasi dog park in a real park.
4 That being said, if it has to be somewhere
5 in this, in this park, I wouldn't put it in any of the
6 three locations, quite honestly. I think anywhere you put
7 a hedge in those locations is going to, is going to
8 disrupt the harmony of the design, the flow of the park.
9 I mean, so all three of those locations are out, as far as
10 I'm concerned.
11 If it had to be somewhere within the
12 boundaries of the park, I would look at other locations,
13 or I would look at somewhere off, you know, site, but
14 that's not an option.
15 You know, I mean, I have been in the
16 planning and design--I've been involved in the planning
17 and design of several parks and, you know, it's --I have
18 never seen anything like this really happen successfully.
19 There is always conflicts and, you know, dog owners, as
20 responsible as they are, they can clean up after their
21 pet, a hundred percent of the dog owners can pick up after
22 their pet, but they can't stop the dogs from running and,
23 you know, the cause of the dog, you know, bringing up the
24 sod, the urine of the dog, which nobody can pick up, is
25 going to deteriorate the sod, and so anywhere you put this
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is --you've got to be prepared that you're going to have
a torn up lawn, maybe not dismal, like the lady said, but
it's not going to be very attractive over time.
So, my recommendation is to look for another
location. If that can't be done, then definitely no
hedge, because I think that's really going to disrupt the
flow and the harmony of the park.
MS. FERNANDEZ: If I can, Mr. Chair, just to
answer, when the park was reaching its final design, it
went through its voter process, there was discussion about
the fact that this was not going to have a dog park within
it, a designated dog park, which is a fenced in dog park,
and when the park was finally opened, there were multiple
meetings of our Board --of our Commission Committees
about this particular subject.
The end product was the creation of a dog
park on Washington and Alton --Washington and 2nd Street,
two blocks north of the park, and that is a fenced in dog
park, we took an open spaced park, diagonally across from
Collins little dog park, and created a large dog park,
with a water feature, benches, everything that a dog park
typically is, like the dog park we have at Pine Tree, the
one we have at Flamingo, the one we have at Belle Isles,
like the brand new one we're building in North Beach, we
built a dog park on Washington and 2nd specifically to
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1 address the concerns of the dog owning community south of
2 5th, that this park, when it reopened, did not permit --
3 did not provide for a dog area.
4 To be clear, apparently when the park,
5 before it was closed down, and shut down for construction,
6 was being informally and, frankly, illegally used as dog
7 off-leash area. So that you understand, the City code,
8 let alone the County code, did not allow the designation
9 of an off-leash area.
10 It was because of the dog owning community
11 that came to the City and said, great, we have a dog park
12 on Washington, but we still want an off-leash area in
13 Washington Park, but the City had to go to the County and
14 change County code to provide for enabling language to
15 allow this City to designate an off-leash area.
16 So there has been a lot of discussion. We
17 actually had to go and change County code to permit the
18 designation of an off-leash area in our City as a result
19 of multiple discussions on this very issue.'
20 Ultimately the Commission chose to recommend
21 a pilot program to provide for off-leash hours, limited
22 hours, in an identified location, which is the pilot
23 program that has been on-going now since we were able to
24 change County code, and that was in December of 2010.
25 The problem is right now, that before the
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Commission makes a final determination on the off-leash,
2 they have said we want to take a look at adding,
3 potentially, a hedge somewhere around wherever the
4 off-leash area is going to be as a component of that
5 designated off-leash area.
6 But in answer to your question, yes, there
7 was discussion about a dog park, and a decision was made
8 to build a dog park on Washington Avenue, two blocks north
9 of the park, but in addition to that, there was a
10 determination by our Commission to also provide for
11 off-leash hours at South Pointe, and we've proceeded with
12 the pilot project as a result of the Commission's
13 direction.
14 MR. SABA: Is that dog park used?
15 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, very well used,
16 including the Collins Park one, diagonally, there is one
17 across from Big King (phonetic), it's a very small one,
18 and diagonal from that, on the Washington --on Washington
19 and 2nd, because they're both on 2nd, is the larger dog
20 park, it has a water feature, it's a nice, you know, area.
21 We, you know, went to the --that was what the Commission
22 concluded, rather than building a permanent dog park at
23 South Pointe Park, in response to concerns about
24 aesthetics, and how that would impact the design, the
25 original design and intent of that park, beautiful park.
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1 MR. CARY: And it's interesting, Hilda,
2 because that park at 2nd and Washington was originally
3 designed as a wonderful people park.
4 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes.
5 MR. CARY: Especially for kids, it had a
6 little auditorium area and all of that, and then because
7 of the desire by local residents to have a dog park, we
8 then had to compl.etely redesign it, Rhonda did a complete
9 redesign to make it exclusively for dogs. So it is
10 really, as you say, it's a dog park, it's not an off-leash
11 area. So, now we will actually have two dog parks and an
12 off-leash area.
13 MS. FERNANDEZ: Right.
14 MR. CARY: So it's kind of a dog heaven.
15 MS. FERNANDEZ: If you're south of 5th.
16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, I completely agree with
17 Seraj, and for the record, I have two dogs. So, I'm very
18 familiar with what dogs --well, what my dogs do, and how
19 they behave, and how they don't behave.
20 So, I just have a few questions. You had
21 mentioned that the ideal size for an off-leash area would
22 be --maybe be an acre.
23 Does --how many --tell me where the acre
24 sites are the city has now, that are off-leash.
25 MS. FERNANDEZ: I think we're referring to
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1 it like a dog park.
2 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
3 MS. FERNANDEZ: The typical thing is like a
4 fenced in dog park.
5 MS. GRACIE: A typical fenced in dog park
6 would consist of two dog runs, an acre in size total, with
7 each side being approximately one half acre.
8 The reason that you would have two sides is
9 so that way, if one side becomes heavily denuded, you can
10 close one side and still keep another side open. It also
11 allows you to have one side designated for 25 pounds and
12 under only, and the other side open to any size dog.
13 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
14 MS. GRACIE: And then what you do is you
15 rotate them, and what that does is that allows us, from an
16 operational standpoint, to be able to rotate the sides,
17 because the bigger dogs will tear up the site faster. So
18 we would periodically --and we do this now at Flamingo
19 Park, at the North Beach dog park, which is up at North
20 Shore Open Space Park, we --and Pine Tree, we
21 automatically rotate those sides, as we start to see it
22 denude, so that way we end up replacing a smaller amount
23 of sod, and we're able to actually fence off that area
24 that we're replacing without actually closing that dog
25 run.
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1 The dog owners are respectful of that, and
2 then we're able to keep both sides open, and we're able to
3 manage it a little bit better.
4 MS. FERNANDEZ: So in answer to your
5 question, the North Shore Open Space Park, dog park, is
6 approximately --which is a brand new dog park, about an
7 acre.
8 MR. HAGOPIAN: Unfenced.
9 MS. FERNANDEZ: It's a fenced dog park.
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11 MS. FERNANDEZ: This is the only designated
12 off-leash area in the entire city, is in South Pointe
1 13 right now.
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14 We have the dog park at Pine Tree Park right
15 now. We are in the midst of discussions, just had a
16 community meeting three weeks --well, at the end of
17 January, because there has been a --there was a request
18 for a designated off-leash area.
19 As an alternative, we are looking at making
20 the current enclosed dog park twice the size, to almost an
21 acre, which seems to have addressed the concerns of the
22 people who wanted an off-leash area, that felt that their
23 little, their dog park was too small. Belle Isle is very
24 small, and Flamingo is slightly less than an acre.
25 So, I mean, frankly it's a space issue,
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because you have to take green space out for a designated
2 dog park.
3 MR. HAGOPIAN: Sure.
4 MS. FERNANDEZ: And the reason we don't have
5 larger parks, more than an acre, is because that's been a
6 restraint.
7 MR. HAGOPIAN: And the Washington fenced
8 park, how big is that, the one that's down here?
9 MS. GRACIE: The one at 2nd Street
10 MR. HAGOPIAN: Uh-huh.
11 MS. GRACIE: --and Washington Avenue is
12 24,000 square feet.
13 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay .
14 MS. FERNANDEZ: And Collins, across the
15 street is about six.
16 MS. GRACIE: Yes, about six
17 MR. HAGOPIAN: And currently you said there
18 are no other people parks that have an off-leash --
19 designated off-leash program going on?
20 MS. FERNANDEZ: There was a request for Pine
21 Tree Park to have a designated off-leash area, with
22 complaints about the size of the current enclosed fence.
23 We went and --we were directed to have a community
24 workshop, which we did, and one of the options was, we
25 presented, because there were concerns about the nature of
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how that park functions, is a little bit different, with a
designated off-leash area and, you know, with the pathways
and what have you.
So the alternative, we proffered at the
community meeting, was enlarging the current enclosed dog
park, and changing the way that the runs are coordinated,
to create longer areas, and we believe, based on the
people at the meeting, that that solution is going to be
the one that will be brought forward, and potentially
approved by the Commission. So we would not designate a
dog park off-leash area there. It would remain just a
larger dog park.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
MR. CARY: Hilda, I would expect that the
City Commission and the administration is going to monitor
this area very carefully, and if they find, you know,
after a year that there are serious problems with this
being an off-leash dog area, that the City Commission
would then take action to reverse its decision, or to do
something else.
MS. FERNANDEZ: That was the purpose of the
pilot, and why they didn't do the designation to begin
with. So we have been reporting back to the Commission on
a regular basis. We have been providing the statistics.
You know, obviously we do have enforcement
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1 issues occasionally, people that don't know, or that just
2 don't care, and put their dogs off-leash during the day
3 when they shouldn't, or are in the wrong areas when they
4 should, would have an opportunity to put in the right
5 area. So we do monitor that, our code compliance staff
6 monitors all of our parks, because this remains an issue
7 of interest to our residents, people who want to go to the
8 park and enjoy it, not --you know, I have dogs as well,
9 but I don't necessary want to have to worry about large
10 dogs when I'm at a park, in particular.
11 So that is something we do monitor, Code,
12 the Parks Department, and the security staff, in
13 particular. South Pointe Park is unique, because we do
14 have full-time security at South Pointe Park.
15 So, you know, unlike other parks, where we
16 don't have on present security guard all day, we do have
17 that at South Pointe Park, on top of the park staff, and
18 on top of the Code compliance staff, that has to do
19 routine checks there anyway, for many other issues,
20 including the off-leash, and pooper scooper laws and all
21 of that.
22 MR. HAGOPIAN: But I would hope the security
23 is not had this has nothing to do with maintaining and
24 monitoring people
25 MS. FERNANDEZ: Not the dog park.
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1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Yes, okay.
2 MS. FERNANDEZ: General security.
3 MR. HAGOPIAN: I mean, dogs pooping in the
4 park, I mean, I hope they're keeping everybody safe.
5 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes.
6 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the hours of the park will
7 stay the same as they are in the pilot program right now.
8 There is no idea that perhaps the hours would be extended,
9 or ---
10 MS. FERNANDEZ: Actually, funny you should
11 ask. The original hours were only until 9:00 a.m., and
12 beginning at 5:00 p.m.
13 While we were discussing the pilot project
14 recently, and as we were directed to proceed with looking
15 at a hedge, at the same time there was a request by the
16 dog owning community south of 5th to extend the hours.
17 So those extended hours have actually only
18 been in place, I believe, two months. So it used to be
19 sunrise to 9:00a.m., and 5:00p.m. to sun--to
20 7:00p.m., and at the request of the Commission, and
21 approved by the Commission subsequently, the hours are now
22 until 10:00 and beginning at 4:00.
23 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
24 MS. FERNANDEZ: I, at this point, you know,
25 I can't tell you whether they would be looking at extended
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hours, but the idea was it's an off-leash designated area,
not intended to be a full-time dog park.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. I --a lot of what
Seraj said, I agree from a landscaping --I think it's
really strange to have this little hedged in area, right
at what I consider to be one of the main entries into the
park.
I mean, of course, cars park in the parking
lot, people walk in from all different areas, but this
sort of little paved area, that's to the east of the
apogee and --I mean, this is where people w~lk in, and
where you can come down, and to have it right there, this
little hedged area, to me it just seems really off, off
the mark from the planning standpoint, from the landscape
side of how this park is.
I mean, we're so diligent about, when they
were redesigning the playground area, and the canopies, I
mean, to think that we would put this, what I consider,
and again I have dogs, but with or without the hedge, it's
sort of like an off limits area to people now that don't
have dogs.
I mean, honestly, I get it, people have to
pick up the debris left by their dog, which is only the
solid debris, the other debris stays there, and you're not
really getting it all anyway, depending on what you feed
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1 you're dog, we all know what dogs do and, I mean, will
2 people even sit there any more? I mean, I would never
3 have a picnic in that area.
4 I live on an Island that has a median, where
5 everybody on my street, every other person has a dog. I
6 don't know, you've been monitoring what's been happening
7 here for last six months, I don't know if you have any
8 stats on the percentage of residents in this area that
9 have dogs and use this park, or how many people are using
10 the park with their dogs but, you know, everybody --their
11 dog goes there, some peopl~ pick it up, some don't .
12 Here, of course, it's monitored. I'm
13 assuming some people maybe leave it and they --you know,
14 I know that there are responsible dog owners, it's not
15 your responsibility to be --to make everybody a
16 responsible dog owner, but, I mean, even knowing people
17 are picking it up, I'm not putting a blanket down there,
18 and I'm certainly --I mean, I don't have any little kids,
19 but I would --that whole part of the park to me would be
20 kind of off limits, and it just seems really weird to me.
21 I mean, I understand there is lots of dog owners, I have
22 two dogs. So, I'm all about to have a designated spot
23 where they can go and run, and go to the bathroom, but I
24 would never expect --like, if I saw somebody picnicking
25 there, I'd be, like, hey, do you know that, you know, 50
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dogs a day come here and run, and I agree, the lawn is --
you know, will get kind of torn up.
I don't really understand the hedge thing.
4 My --you know, I have Terriers, you know, so they're not
5 huge dogs, but anyway, again, there is a zillion different
6 breeds of Terriers, and they love to go in hedges, and
7 through hedges, above hedges, on top of hedges, they'll
8 jump off of roofs. I mean, my dog has done all those
9 things.
10 So, I don't really --if there is not going
11 to be a fence, I don't really get the hedge either. So,
12 I'm really not in --I don't really feel much love for
13 this project. I don't understand it.
14 I applaud the residents in the area that got
15 together and somehow got the zoning changed to allow this.
16 I mean, I--wow, I mean, that's amazing. The Commission
17 approved a pilot program. It doesn't mean the Commission
18 is going to approve the final program, and for me, I'm not
19 going to support this project on this Board right now.
20 MR. CARY: Jason, my understanding is that
21 the purpose of the hedge is to educate the dog owners, not
22 to --not to educate the dogs. The dogs are going to jump
23 right over a two-foot hedge, obviously, but it's for the
24 purpose of the City to be able to enforce, and just say to
25 the owners, that is the area, if it should be needed.
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1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Maybe a few signs, signs
2 would be less intrusive and just as effective, I don't
3 know, you need to go in where those hedges are.
4 I'm not worried about --I mean, I'm hoping
5 at least the owners will understand that this is the dog
6 area, but, I mean, a dog you can't --you know, a dog is
7 going to, like you said, it's going to do what it's going
8 to do. I mean, even some people that were in support of
9 the park, in their descriptions were saying, oh, well, you
10 know, dogs --we have two different kind of parks, because.
11 this park, first, this one is the grass, I forgot the word
12 you used, but it's going to get destroyed, so they
13 switched to this one, and they can fix the sod and, I
14 mean, we don't even have that luxury here. So, this thing
15 is going to get worn, worn down, and it's kind of in the
16 first part of the park everybody sees when they come down
17 that walkway.
18 MS. FERNANDEZ: If I may, in all fairness,
19 those are dog parks that are used full-time for that
20 purpose.
21 I'm not suggesting that the hours that we're
22 suggesting, that have been approved by the Commission,
23 these are the hours the Commission approved, are going to
24 result in proportionately less damage to the grass, but at
25 the end of the day, you know, I want to just be clear,
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those are designated dog parks, that's all they're used
for, the dogs are in there, presumably only in there
off-leash, and tearing around, and doing whatever they do.
This is not a full-time dog park. It's a designated area.
It's used limit hours, and for the most part, you know,
the folks that go out there use it, because we obviously
go out there often, they're running their dogs, and when
they're done they're taking them home, because these are
folks who live in condos, and aren't folks that have .a
backyard where they're able to do that behind their
homes.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Right, I understand.
MS. FERNANDEZ: But that would be the
difference between, you know, a dog park and the denuding,
which I think is the term.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Denuding, that's a new word
for me.
MS. FERNANDEZ: The denuding of the green
area.
MR. SABA: Would you say that the grass, the
lawn in the off-leash area, the current off-leash area is
exactly the same as other areas in the park, where,
like ---
MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, we have sod issues in
the park as a whole, as you may know. So, and I know what
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1 we have there right now is rye grass but, John, you can
2 speak to what the
3 MR. OLDENBURG: Yes, if I may, John
4 Oldenburg, Parks and Recrecration Department.
5 The photo that you're looking at on the
6 screen right now, that's a current photograph, and that is
7 the current area that's being used as the off-leash area.
8 That site has been used for that con --
9 that's in the same condition that it was six mon.ths ago
10 when we started using that site.
11 Because we've got a larger space, and just
12 to make a point, the dogs in South Pointe, the tiff-leash
13 area is an answer to the existing condition that there are
14 dogs. I mean, the demographics have changed dramatically.
15 If we build three more parks, they're going
16 to be filed with dogs. It's not a question of, you know,
17 whether we need this area or not. It's a question of,
18 it's addressing a need. It does demarcate an area where
19 people can run their dogs, and it does lessen the dogs
20 that are in the rest of the park.
21 Historically the eastern part of the park,
22 which is east of the restaurant, where the playground is,
23 and has the Pavilion building, is the greater used area
24 for the patrons, for the picnicking and the sitting and
25 the area there, also the exercise goes on there, too.
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1 So, you know, knowing that the dogs are
2 going to visit the park, and most of the dog owners that
3 we have seen in that park are residents that are walking
4 their dog, not getting out of a car. The other dog parks
5 we have in the city are generally driven to, a lot of them
6 are.
7 In this area they seem to be walking to the
8 dog parks. So, they're in the buildings, they're living
9 in close proximity to this area. So, it's a need that is
10 there, and if we didn't have an area designated for that
11 use, they would be spread out in a larger area, and then
12 we don't have as much control, we don't have the ability
13 to target enforcement, which is what we do, the park is
14 heavily enforced. So, we have staff there seven days a
15 week, 12 hours a day, we have 24-hour security there.
16 So, it is the best situation that we can
17 accommodate the dogs and the patrons, because another
18 point to make, that area that we're requesting to be
19 looked at, the review, which is a combination of 1 and 2,
20 the coconuts do create a natural barrier for the dogs. It
21 does demarcate a dividing point.
22 The area that now houses the monument, the
23 new feature, the lighthouse is not appropriate any more,
24 because you did have a conflict between the cut walk and
25 one of the perimeters. So, that is something to consider,
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1 because that's the main cut walk that goes towards the
2 McCarther, all the way back along the Marina side, and
3 that's, that's generally well used.
4 So this has been a better situation, as far
5 as usage, and as far as the denuding on the turf, the park
6 is irrigated, we're on an irrigation schedule. We do
7 understand that there are --you know, we do have issues
8 with urination, but we also have the irrigation system to
9 naturalize that. It is a sandy soil. So, it does. not
10 stay in the soil, it will run through.
11 MR. HAGOPIAN: The entire park is on-leash
12 right now. I mean, you could bring a dog anywhere
13 on-leash?
14 MR. OLDENBURG: The rest of the park is
15 on-leash.
16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Through the entire park?
17 MS. FERNANDEZ: Any time of day you can
18 bring your dog to that park on a leash and they can poop
19 and not get picked up.
20
21 have a
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MR. HAGOPIAN: And then a block north, you
complete area where a dog could go
MS. FERNANDEZ: Unleashed.
MR. HAGOPIAN: --unleashed.
MS. FERNANDEZ: Correct, 24/7.
MR. HAGOPIAN: So we're not providing
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for dog owners right now?
MR. OLDENBURG: Well, in Washington,
Washington Dog Park, Flamingo Dog Park, you're averaging
60, 70 dogs in there. I mean, there are a large --there
is a large population of dogs in Miami Beach right now.
The owners, the demographics have changed. The owners are
younger, they've got --they've got the dogs, and really
we're just addressing the need that's there. It's not
going to go away. In fact, it's going to get larger. So,
we're trying to accommodate as many people as we can, as
everybody is a patron of the park. So that's
MS. FERNANDEZ: And, again, I just want to
re-emphasize, this issue was discussed at Committee and
Commission, we had folks on all sides of the issue come to
the publicly noticed meetings, express their opinion as to
why we needed this, or did not need this.
The Commission's decision at the time was to
proceed until June, they extended the pilot until June, to
give enough time for this to go through the DRB process,
because when they decided to proceed, they said we'd like
to look at the hedge option, and at which point we said,
well, that would require Design Review Board, because
you're creating now a physical barrier, blah, blah, which
is why it's here, but the only reason it wasn't approved
last time is that they decided they wanted to look at the
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1 hedge as an option, and decided to defer the final
2 conclusion until they could include within the ordinance
3 the final location, but at the end of the day, there was
4 much discussion on exactly that issue from other folks who
5 said, hey, no hedge, no nothing, we already have it here.
6 I mean, that was --there was a lot of
7 really good, diversity of opinion that was presented to
8 the Commission, and at the end of the day the Commission's
9 determination was to proceed with the pilot, to allow this
10 to go through the DRB process for a recommendation from
11. you as to, you know, potentially what you thought was the
12 best location in light of the aesthetic issues and, you
13 know, a hedge what your consideration was for a hedge
14 based on those locations, and we would take your
15 recommendation back to them, and then they will have to
16 make a final decision and, again, publicly noticed,
17 members of the community will come out. We hope,
18 obviously, the resident who spoke earlier will come out
19 and give her opinion, but in June we are scheduled to go
20 back, because this is when the current pilot project
21 expires. So our desire is to go back in May for first
22 reading. In the event it gets approved at first reading,
23 so it would be approved at the latest for the second
24 reading in June, when the current pilot project expires,
25 if that is the desire of the Commission.
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But ultimately all of this discussion, you
know, a lot of comments, and concerns, and support, and
opposed, you know, those folks came to the Commission, and
we hope they come to the Commission again to discuss
whatever the result of your recommendation is when we move
forward with the project.
MR. CARY: So, Hilda, to help the Board in
making its decision, if the majority of the members of the
Board feel very strongly that there should not be an
off-le~sh dog area in South Pointe Park, they can say
they can make a motion that said, if it is decided by the
City Commission to approve an off-leash dog program in
South Pointe Park, we would recommend, you know, Area X.
However, the Design Review Board, for a
variety of reasons, is strongly opposed to an off-leash
dog area at South Pointe Park, is that the type of ---
MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I will tell you,
William, I'm not your attorney, so I can't give you
guidance, but the designation of an off-leash area, with
no physical anything, I don't know would have even --
would not have even come to the DRB, that's been in place.
really ---
MR. CARY: Well, it's the hedge ---
MS. FERNANDEZ: So what the issue is,
MR. CARY: It's the hedge that raises it to
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the DRB.
MS. FERNANDEZ: Right, the final location is
important, and they wanted to get the input of the DRB,
especially as it relates to the potential inclusion of a
hedge but, you know, obviously we've designated an
off-leash area for the last, over a year, based on the
direction of the Commission, and they had one location,
moved it to another location, but now as we're going to
the phase where they're actually considering a permanent
location, and this concept of a hedge came up, we really
do --you know, we really --obviously it needs to come to
this board if there is going to be a hedge, because that
has a --it changes the landscape, so to speak, of what's
happening in that park.
You know, certainly you all can give any
recommendation, you know, certainly, but, you know,
ultimately, you know, they're going to consider --what
they really wanted to get a recommendation from, was if
there was going to be a hedge, which of these areas would
make the best sense in terms of in this park.
MR. CARY: Would it be appropriate if the
board was to approve one area, to request the City put on
that sign that says off-leash dog area, also something
that says this area may not be used for picnics, or
something of that nature?
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1 Because I think it's a very real concern
2 that everybody --I mean, it's common sense, I mean, you
3 don't want to sit down in an area in a picnic with your
4 kids where dogs have been for the last, you know, several
5 hours, so --but it's just ---
6 MS. FERNANDEZ: You know, our concern would
7 be, this is a public open space. The reason why it's not
8 a designated dog park is precisely because it was intended
9 to be some minimal use during the day off-leash.
10 That area of the park can be used by anybody
11 with a dog on a leash, like any other part of the park can
12 be used by anybody with a dog on a leash. Someone can go
13 with a dog on a leash, where the Art in Public Places
14 piece is at, and have that dog poo and pee all over the
15 place, and it's on leash, it would be as detrimental there
16 as anyplace else in the park, but they could do that as
17 long as the dog is on a leash.
18 So really, we're talking about the
19 distinction of a designated off-leash area, where, from a
20 design perspective, in the park you believe is should be,
21 especially if it's going to have a recommended hedge
22 around --a hedge around it, as has been suggested by some
23 members of the Commission.
24 They decided to proceed, because there was a
25 recommendation by one Commissioner, in particular, about
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the placement of a hedge, as a condition of approving the
2 project moving forward, and the full Commission said at
3 that point, well, then let's get the recommendation of the
4 DRB before we make a final determination.
5 It certainly isn't inappropriate to say
6 Option 1 with a hedge, Option 2, yes, I guess a hedge, but
7 we would recommend no hedge because there is already
8 natural boundaries, which is consistent with what the
9 Staff wrote, I think, in their report to you.
10 MR. CARY: And, again, I would go back to my
11 earlier guidance to the Board, is that whether there is
12 going to be a dog --off-leash dog area here or not is a
13 City Commission policy decision, and that the Design
14 Review Board should really limit its decision to the
15 design issues associated with an off-leash dog area.
16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Design and safety. It's
17 about safety. That's what --that's in our, you know, our
18 description
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MR. CARY: It is.
MR. HAGOPIAN: of what we do.
MR. CARY: It is in your evaluation.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Appearance, aesthetics safety
MR. CARY: It's public safety, yes.
MR. HAGOPIAN: So ---
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1 MR. CARY: I think it's well within your
2 purview to make a recommendation relative to safety.
3 MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of the day, we
4 either approve or we do not approve an application. I
5 mean, if we approve it ---
6 MR. CARY: Well, the application requests
7 that you approve a location if the City Commission makes a
8 determination that it's correct to have an off-leash dog
9 area here.
10 MR. HAGOPIAN: And what if you don't like
11 any of the locations?
12 MR. CARY: Maybe the City Attorney's Office
13 would like to provide further guidance. I'm getting
14 MR. SABA: Could we ask that there ---
15 MR. CARY: --above my pay rate right now.
16 MR. SABA: Could we ask that alternate
17 locations be proposed? Because really those three
18 locations, I think, are
19 MR. CARY: But is there an alternate
20 location within South Pointe Park that you would ---
21 MS. FERNANDEZ: No, this would be the three
22 alternate locations. We've tried to separate it from the
23 children's playground area, which is not a fenced in
24 children's area at this point. The other side of the hill
25 is a dune area, which we wouldn't recommend.
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1 So really, in terms of public spaces, you
2 have the two lawns, the east lawn and the west lawn, and
3 you have the area where the public art piece is, and a
4 sliver of land that's between the walkway, where the
5 public art piece is, and apogee.
6 We recommended that space, but that space,
7 because of the landscape, ends up being even much smaller
8 than 18,000 square feet. So, that was already shut down
9 as a potential alternative, and that's what I'm referring
10 to, is this area, this is the public art piece area. We
11 attempted to do this area here. It's had additional
12 plantings in the area, and as a result the square footage
13 that was available was deemed too small, and was not
14 considered as an alternative, not even as a temporary
15 alternative when we were doing the construction here,
16 which is why we ended up moving it to a portion of the
17 west lawn, but when we've looked at all the other spaces,
18 I mean, this is planting and dunes, and elevated berms,
19 you know, this is the dune area, this is the children's
20 playground area, this area gets heavy use from children
21 playing and picnicking and what have you, people --
22 because the restrooms are on this side of the park for
23 now. We may eventually have other restrooms on this side.
24
25 alternatives.
So, you know, we did look at other
Unfortunately we could not find any
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alternative that provided some reasonable level of space,
based on what the expectations were from the dog owners in
the area, where they wanted something at least comparable
to that space, and that one, having very little
landscaping, because it's a water's edge, was open green
space, and was, you know, very well used, and very --you
know, people liked it, while it was available, but think
everybody else conceded that, you know, this works for
them because they have this physical barrier with the
elevated cut walk.
You know, the issue now is whether just to
do the half, or go all the way to the walkway, which are
Options 1 and 2, that are being presented.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Gary.
MR. HELD: So, just to clarify a few
jurisdictional questions that may have arisen. So first
and foremost, appeals from the Design and Review Board go
to the City Commission. So, the City Commission would
ultimately have final say over any issue that's presented
to you.
Also, there are no structures that are being
presented to you for approval. We're really just talking
about a landscape and wall, whatever you want to call it,
landscape, strip, hedge, and I don't know that your
decision is really dispositive on that issue, particularly
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1 given the nature of the appeal process.
2 So really you're making a recommendation to
3 the City Commission. They have the right to overrule you
4 if an appeal were to be filed.
5 So, you know, look at the application, give
6 it your best decision. You know, whatever the majority
7 decides, the administration will review it, and then they
8 need to take it to the City Commission anyway, whether
9 they take it as an original matter in their proprietary.
10 capacity, or as an appeal, the City Commission will make
11 the final decision.
12 MR. CARY: That kind of makes it a lot
13 easier, doesn't it?
14 MR. HAGOPIAN: It only sounds a lot easier
15 but --Lilia, did you have something?
16 MS. MEDINA: Just another question.
17 Hilda, on Area 1, which is existing pilot
18 program area, in the in our drawings we have a
19 suggested hedge between Area 1 and Area 2.
20 So, if one were to go only for Area 1, the
21 existing area that's being used now, you had mentioned
22 earlier that, you know, people use the whole area anyway,
23 and that you had a sign in the middle saying, this is the,
24 you know, dedicated area, but people just don't really --
25 so, in my mind, I had said earlier that I would go with
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just Area 1, because I really feel strongly that the park
2 should not be just kind of reserved for, you know, one
3 kind of use, but it really doesn't make sense.
4 If you're opposed to the hedge overall,
5 which I think most us are because of the idea of the
6 master plan, and how you want it open, then Area 1 by
7 itself would necessitate a hedge of some sort. So it
8 doesn't make sense.
9 So really what's on our recommendation, or
10 our consideration, is really Area 1 and 2 together, hedge
11 or no hedge, you know, because I think all of us are in
12 agreement that we don't want Area 3 as a consideration.
13 MS. FERNANDEZ: And I think we also
14 considered the fact that, you know, Option 1 represents
15 literally creating a hedge in the middle of an open green
16 space right now, which is a little odd from a design
17 perspective, you know, because while there is a natural
18 boundary at the walkway, there isn't one in the middle,
19 that's just, we picked a location that more or less gave
20 them sufficient square footage, and that's where we kind
21 of demarcated a hedge. So it breaks out the, you know,
22 the free and open lawn that's there right now, where you
23 have an open vista.
24 You know, if the decision is to put a hedge,
25 ultimately, which the Commission needs to --you know,
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that was what they couldn't decide on, but if the decision
is to do a hedge, you know, clearly it's going to at least
be contiguous with the current walkways. So, that might
present less of a physical, wow, you know, there is a
hedge in the middle of a park in a green space.
So, you know, that's why that option is
there and, again, the Staff offers the, you know, the
option of, you know, presenting it, okay, if you're going
to do a hedge, maybe here, but we prefer no hedge, you
know, all together, as an alternative, I think, that they
put in the memo to you, but that's kind of where we're at
with that, and we've talked about additional openings as
well, again, to make sure people understand that this is
intended to be a free and open use, it's not a dog park.
So, we're looking at, you know, whether we have additional
openings to make it clear that this is an area that people
are free and easy --you know, willing to or able to
access during the day, whenever they want.
MR. CARY: I would make one --like to make
one quick suggestion. If it's the majority of members
that feel strongly against having an off-leash area in
South Pointe Park, I would not want to see the Design
Review Board forfeit its opportunity to make a
recommendation as to which of the three areas that are
being considered would be the preferred location should a
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1 dog, off-leash dog area be determined to be appropriate by
2 the City Commission. I think you at least want to have
3 that recommendation into the City Commission.
4 Because it sounds to me like we're going to
5 end up having an off-leash dog area in South Pointe Park,
6 and I just don't want you to forfeit your opportunity, and
7 then we find that we have an off-leash dog area around the
8 lighthouse, you know, which I think would be the worst.
9 MR. HAGOPIAN: So, hypothetically, if we
10 select Area 2, which is the big piece, and we decide
11 and we want the hedge, but we want the hedge to kind of
12 meander through the trees, blah, blah, blah, and then you
13 don't get four votes, what happens?
14 MR. CARY: The motion fails. I mean ---
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: And then what happens?
16 MR. CARY: Well ---
17 MR. HAGOPIAN: You still need to have a
18 majority, right? I mean, you still have to have four.
19 MR. HELD: That matter --that would be your
20 decision. Your decision would probably be appealed to the
21 City Commission, because the application would still need
22 to be approved before the work could commence, and the
23 City Commission would make the final decision, but
24 whatever your decision is, it would be reported, along
25 with the appeal.
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Anyway, that's the way I see it. I don't
2 know what Staff is contemplating, but --so your
3 sentiments on this will be presented to the City
4 Commission in any event, because it is going to be
5 presented at some point, and the only question is, in what
6 form does it take, does it take the form of a decision by
7 this board, or an appeal, or something else.
8 So, feel free to decide whatever you think
9 appropriate, given your best judgment.
10 MR. MINAGORRI: You mentioned that the photo
11 that was taken here is already after the park has been in
12 use as an unleashed park for --after six months.
13 MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the photo that I have
14 on the screen right now, that's basically since--that
15 usage since November.
16 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay.
17 MR. OLDENBURG: We're in--right now we're
18 in March.
19 MR. MINAGORRI: So ---
20 MS. GRACIE: I physically took that
21 photo ---
22 MR. OLDENBURG: This photo was recent. This
23 is just a week ago.
24 MR. MINAGORRI: So, in your opinion, because
25 I think Seraj made a point, that with all the feces, and
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1 all urination of the dogs, that the grass is going to
2 suffer, and there is going to be a real difference between
3 seeing other areas of grass and here, but I look at this
4 picture, and this looks like it was just recently planted.
5 Do you guys do something --I mean, do
6 people use this area now, besides as the dog area, to come
7 and do picnics, does anybody complain of the smell, does
8 anybody complain that they're sitting on a foul area?
9 I mean, is that something that really is
10 I mean, are you guys doing something special to keep this
11 at this level, or is it --this is the way it's always
12 going to be?
13 MR. OLDENBURG: Actually that park is
14 maintained the entire park is maintained at the same
15 standard. So, one issue, we have not had complaints of
16 residents, or patrons of the park, you know, wanting to
17 visit that area and, of an odor, or any other negative
18 complaint, except for some people that do not want the mix
19 of the dogs with the people.
20 I mean, there are people that don't want any
21 dogs ---
22 MR. MINAGORRI: Right, but when you are on
23 the off times, between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00p.m., do people
24 other than --that do not have dogs, do they actually go
25 to this area and actually sit there, is there any
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1 complaints at that time that this is not a safe place to
2 be in?
3 MR. OLDENBURG: No, we have not received
4 that. I mean, people do sit underneath the trees,
5 especially along, adjacent to Washington Avenue, they sit
6 there, you know, around noon time, when there is shade,
7 but the primary users of the park are using the eastern
8 section of the park, east of the restaurant, that's the
9 majority usage, and then the cut walk. So, there is usage
10 on the west side.
11 MR. MINAGORRI: So what is the us~ge of this
12 area, other than the dog area? When the dogs aie not
13 there, what happens in this 1 and 2 parcels?
14 MR. OLDENBURG: Compared to the rest of the
15 park, it's very little used, as far as patrons.
16 It may be transversed, but that sidewalk
17 that's in your photo, is a major corridor where people
18 walk through to the cut walk, but most of the people that
19 enter to the park are already on the cut walk when they
20 enter the park, they're coming along from the bayside,
21 along the marina side, and they're also coming in from the
22 north.
23 So, there is a lot of cut walk users, and a
24 lot of the park --parking because of the parking
25 situation in that park, there is not a lot of traffic that
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1 people are driving to that park just to go to the park,
2 they're going to the restaurant, and while they're at the
3 restaurant, they're using the rest of the park, or they're
4 driving to the park to use the playground and the water
5 features, or they access the beach, but as far as patrons
6 that are driving to that park, they're primarily coming
7 from the local buildings that are adjacent to the park,
8 and they're walking from the cut walk, they're walking
9 from Washington, but primarily from the cut walk area.
10 MS. FERNANDEZ: That is an excellent
11 question. Again, the current and only restaurants in the
12 park are adjacent to the east lawn, right next to the only
13 concession in the park, Blissberry Yogurt, right next to
14 the children's play area, right next to the splash ground.
15 In the future, depending on what happens
16 with the Washington Avenue entrance, if there is a
17 decision made, as we proceed with dealing with the
18 fountains, it may require the building of restrooms on the
19 other side of the Washington Avenue entrance.
20 At that point you might see more activity on
21 that side of the park, but naturally speaking, the folks
22 and the families that use it are using the areas adjacent
23 to the tot lot, near the bathroom, next to the splash
24 ground, and that is on the east lawn primarily. I'm not
25 saying there's never activity there, but the majority of
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the activity, family-wise or whatever, you tend to see
closer to the restroom and splash ground and concession,
which is the other side, the other lawn.
MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I just had a brief
conversation with the Park's director, Kevin Smith. The
Board could make two separate motions. It could make one
motion opposing an off-leash dog area in South Pointe
Park, and it could make a second motion recommending that
if an off-leash dog area is found to be appropriate by the
City Commission, that the board would recommend Area, you
know, X, Y or Z.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Well, maybe just --we
can maybe do a straw poll for the motion of which part of
those three properties we feel would be best if you had to
pick one of the three.
MR. SABA: And if there should be a hedge or
no hedge.
MR. CARY: And then there is the hedge
issue, yes.
MR. MINAGORRI: That could be divided into
two different motions, one selecting the area, and the
other one is selecting where the hedges are.
MR. CARY: One motion would be how the Board
feels about having an off-leash dog area in South Pointe
Park, period. The next motion would be, if it's
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determined by the City Commission to have an off-leash dog
program in South Pointe Park, which area the board would
recommend, and what your position would be relative to it
be optional, at the Parks Department's discretion, whether
a hedge should be introduced, or whether you want to
require a hedge, or whether you want to require no hedge.
MR. HAGOPIAN: So that would be part of one
motion.
MS. HOUSEN: I .have one more question,
before we get to that.
Is there a reason Area 1 and 2 cannot be
separated? Because one side of it is 18,000 feet, and one
side of it is 14,000 feet. So, in total it's just under
one acre. Could it not just be 1 or 2? Why do they have
to be com--it's, like, we have a choice of 3, or 1 and
2.
MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the useable space that
you actually have in Site 1 would be inside that tree
line, and there is, because of the extended tree
plantings, the usable space is quite less than 18,000
square feet, and the combined area of usable space is very
close to the 18,000.
MS. HOUSEN: So it needs to be combined?
MR. OLDENBURG: Yes.
MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I mean, obviously
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1 that's a decision the Commission will make. They wanted
2 us to look at all of the options.
3 Just to be clear, the original
4 recommendation that was submitted by Staff, the Staff
5 administrative recommendation, did not include a hedge.
6 The hedge option was discussed as part of the presentation
7 of the item by the Commission. It was introduced as an
8 option for consideration of approval.
9 But the original request was just leaving
10 this as an off-leash area, without a hedge, which is how
11 it's been functioning for the last year, but this
12 because of this additional request, as a result of the
13 Commission discussion, and that's why we've submitted the
14 DRB application but, you know, to Ms. Housen's point, yes,
15 the concern that's been raised that has arisen now is
16 that the area we had designated --and by the way, when we
17 went to the Commission and showed them the maps, and we
18 said this is the area, because of the safety issues that
19 resulted in us not being able to put signs in the middle
20 of the open field, they had assumed that this open space,
21 all the way to the walkway, was the approved off-leash
22 area, and when we said, no, no, that wasn't what was the
23 pilot, temporary area, they came to the Commission and
24 said, then we have a concern, the useable space is now
25 much smaller because of new plantings, we want you to
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1 consider going all the way to Washington --to this
2 walkway.
3 So, we were directed to present all three
4 options to you, the original space that we thought was,
5 everybody understood was the off-leash area, the pilot
6 area, all the Washington Avenue and, of course, the
7 original location, where we had placed it before the
8 construction of the lighthouse.
9 But, you know, again, the project moved
10 forward. It's just a designated off-leash area. The
11 concept of a hedge was something that was introduced as we
12 were discussing the pilot, and whether the pilot should or
13 shouldn't continue.
14 MR. CARY: Okay. Okay.
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: So as far as for straw poll
16 purposes, we're looking at Area 1, which is the small
17 part, or Area 2, which is the small part, plus the part
18 next to the small part.
19 Is there --well, we're not looking at 3, I
20 guess, because we don't want it near the public art, or is
21 that an option that you think is better?
22 MR. SABA: I mean, if it had to be there, I
23 would --if it had to be somewhere --
24
25
MR. HAGOPIAN: .You would pick 3?
MR. SABA: I would pick 3.
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MS. MEDINA: Because it's away from the
center.
MR. SABA: It's away, it's off to the side,
it doesn't divide that large grassy area, and it doesn't
take that whole area away from people that want to, you
know, use it. I mean, that's a large area. You can--
you know, if you wanted to, you know, for football, or
baseball, or something, if somebody else wanted to play
there, and you put a hedge down the middle of it, that
really ruins it, and then if you have a bunch of dogs
running around there, when somebody wants to use it, you
know, even if it's just for a few hours of the day,
they're not going to go there because there is going to be
a lot of dogs there. So, you're excluding other users, at
least during that time.
MR. CARY: My concern, board members, is
that the Design Review Board, you know, had held two
public hearings relative to what the correct location is
for the Art in Public Places piece, and you made that
decision in light of the fact that there was never
contemplated to be a dog park, an off-leash dog area
there, and it would really be contradictory to identifying
a location for a half a million dollar piece of public
art, and then create an off-leash dog area around it that
would limit public access to a piece of public art.
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1 It Is --
2 MR. SABA: Which is why there shouldn't
3 be --
4 MR. CARY: a serious concern.
5 MR. SABA: a dog park at this park.
6 MR. CARY: Well, again, you can make two
7 separate motions, but ---
8 MR. LAVA: I'm Dennis Lava, Art in Public
9 Places.
10 Number one, a world class artist would have
11 never even submitted a Public Art Sculpture for a dog
12 park.
13 MR. SABA: Look, sir, please, I'm not
14 advocating for the dog park to be at --
15 MR. LAVA: Correct.
16 MR. SABA: --that location. We're being
17 forced to make a decision here of one of three locations.
18 Our hands --I'm saying none of the locations, zero, none,
19 not one.
20 MR. LAVA: And I would also like to point
21 out, when the artist designed that, if you notice the
22 bottom puck of the sculpture, that's intended to be an
23 area for people to sit and view the sunset, and I know
24 everybody beats around the bush here, but nobody is going
25 to be sitting in that, dog owner or not, when you're
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1 sitting on feces and urine, because that's all cement.
2 So, you're basically taking away one of the intents of the
3 work of art, and that was the area selected.
4 Nobody is going to be sitting there to be
5 sitting in dog feces and urine, and that's not going to go
6 away, because it's stuck on cement.
7 MR. SABA: Which is why we shouldn't have
8 this in this park at all. I mean that makes my point.
9 But understand, we're being asked to make a
10 decision --we.'re being given three alternatives, none of
11 which are suitable, but we're having to chose one of them.
12 MR. LAVA: Well, I was just explaining the
13 intent of that lower seating, which is for people to sit
14 and view it, not to sit in feces, which will probably
15 happen if you do do the dog park there, and it's also less
16 space.
17
18 support?
19
20 or shrubs.
21
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25 and 2.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Carol, which location do you
MS. HOUSEN: I don't support any location,
If that's the straw poll, I'd be willing to --
MR. HAGOPIAN: But if you had to?
MS. HOUSEN: --put it in a motion.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Mickey?
MR. MINAGORRI: I would support the Area 1
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1 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the big space?
2 MR. MINAGORRI: The big space, yes.
3 MR. HAGOPIAN: Lilia?
4 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I would support Area 1 and
5 2 combined, without a hedge, if we're going to go with an
6 off-leash area, and I would also support not having an
7 off-leash area at all.
8 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the two motion concepts?
9 So, she would support using the large area,
10 which is actually called Area 2, with no hedges, as one
11 motion, and then she would also make another motion that
12 would say that she does not --that she's does not
13 support --
14 MS. MEDINA: An off-leash area at all.
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: --any off-leash area in the
16 entire South Pointe Park.
17 MS. MEDINA: And I certainly don't want to
18 have any consideration for Area Number 3. I think that
19 area, as you may recall when we voted on this, those
20 members, when the Board who were on here, there was a
21 concern for it to be a pusua (phonetic), and it was
22 mentioned in our discussion, and I really feel that a
23 world class piece of art, public art space is not
24 conducive to having dogs going around them.
25 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, and I think for me it's
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1 important that we send a strong message to the Commission,
2 at least, which is why I support the two motions, I don't
3 think it should go anywhere here either, but if we can't
4 just make a motion that we don't want the park here, and
5 we have to make a second motion to pick a spot to put the
6 park, or put the dog leash area, I guess that's what we
7 have to do.
8 MS. HOUSEN: Jason, can I make a motion that
9 we vote against any, the shrubby plan that's been
10 proposed, to not use it,. and the second part of that
11 motion, that we do not choose a location for off-leash
12 dogs, could that be part of the motion?
13 MR. CARY: Would you make that two separate
14 motions, though? I think you want to make one motion
15 that's very strong.
16 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. Let me repeat that.
17 MR. CARY: If everybody is opposed to
18 putting in an off-leash dog area, I think you want to have
19 a strong motion to reflect that specifically.
20 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. The first motion is DRB
21 File 22894, and the first motion is to not support the
22 install --installation of any hedge, excuse me,
23 delineating any area. I think it would really harm the
24 park. That's my first motion.
25 MR. CARY: Is that motion ---
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1 MS. HOUSEN: That's my first motion.
2 MR. CARY: Saying that there be no off-leash
3 dog area in South Pointe?
4 MS. HOUSEN: No, the first motion is no
5 hedge, against the hedge, the hedge that's been proposed.
6 MR. CARY: If there is an off-leash dog area
7 in South Pointe Park, that there be no hedge, is that what
8 you're saying?
9 MS. HOUSEN: The first --okay. Let me, let
10 me revoke what I just said. The first motion should be
11 that we don't have an off-leash dog park.
12 MR. CARY: In South Pointe Park.
13 MS. HOUSEN: In South Pointe Park, and can I
14 not make it inclusive, that we do not ---
15 MR. CARY: But I would recommend that you
16 make just a completely separate motion.
17 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. That's my motion, that
18 we do not support the off-leash dog park.
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MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second.
MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor.
UNIDENTIFIED: I.
MS. HOUSEN: I.
UNIDENTIFIED: I.
UNIDENTIFIED: Nay.
MR. HAGOPIAN: So it passes.
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MR. HELD: So, four to one in favor of the
Okay. Any ---
MS. HOUSEN: The Commission can undo it if
5 they choose, and just, that's our recommendation. That's
6 the first one.
7 And the second one is that, to not delineate
8 any areas with the hedging that's been proposed, any area.
9 MR. HELD: So if there is a dog an
10 off-leash dog area, that there is no hedges.
11 MS. HOUSEN: That there be no hedges.
12 MR. CARY: Do you --does the board have a
13 preference relative to which of the three areas?
14 MS. HOUSEN: No, I don't support any of the
15 areas. It's up to the board---
16 MR. HELD: That would be a separate motion
17 as well.
18 MR. CARY: Again, I just don't want for the
19 board to forfeit its opportunity to make a recommendation
20 of ---
21 MR. HELD: Was there a second to ---
22 MS. HOUSEN: But the dogs can still be in
23 the park. They just can't be off-leash, right, they still
24 have the full park. We're not saying no dogs, just no
25 off-leash.
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MR. HELD: Okay. See if there is a second
2 to this motion.
3 MR. SABA: I'll second it.
4 MR. HELD: Okay. Seraj, second.
5 MR. CARY: Could you repeat the motion
6 again, please? I'm still a little bit ---
7 MR. HELD: This is if there is a dog --an
8 off-leash area in the park, there should be no hedges,
9 correct?
10 M.S. HOUSEN: Yes, that's correct. Thank
11 you.
12 MR. HELD: You're welcome.
13 MR. HAGOPIAN: Seraj seconded it.
14 MR. CARY: Yes.
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor?
16 GROUP: I.
17 MR. HELD: So it was unanimous, five to
18 zero.
19 MS. HOUSEN: Okay.
20 MR. HELD: Any recommendation on if there is
21 an off-leash area, where it should go?
22 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I would like to make a
23 motion to recommend Area Number 2, which is the total of
24 34,000 square feet and, again, you know we've already
25 voted on no hedges, so ---
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MR. HELD: So, if there is an off-leash area
Pointe Park, it should go in Area ---
MS. MEDINA: Number 2.
MR. MOONEY: Lilia, is that 1 ---
MR. HELD: Which includes Number 1?
MR. MOONEY: Right.
MR. HELD: Okay.
MS. MEDINA: A combined area, total of
9 34,000 square feet.
10 MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that.
11 MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor?
12 GROUP: I.
13 MS. HOUSEN: Nay.
14 UNIDENTIFIED: Nay.
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: I.
16 MR. HELD: So it's 3 to 2.
17 MS. MEDINA: It passes.
18 MR. HELD: Well, four votes, but that's the
19 recommendation to the City Commission.
20 MR. CARY: So you are forfeiting your
21 opportunity to give advice to the City Commission relative
22 to what --which of the three areas ---
23 MR. HELD: No, they just did. William, they
24 just did. You report a three to two vote on Area 2.
25 MR. HAGOPIAN: The Commission already made
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1 the great decision to put the park here in the first
2 place. I mean, at this point you're telling us we don't
3 have much effect here. I mean, it looks to me like this
4 is going to happen, unless the Commission values what this
5 Board has said, and
6 MR. CARY: Right, but if you have only three
7 choices for dinner, and you have to eat, I would rather,
8 at least, have a chance to choose which of those three I
9 don't like, rather than ending up with something that I --
10 is going to make me sick.
11 MS. HOUSEN: But, Mr. Cary, with due
12 respect, this is still in a pilot program, and I think
13 it's very important that the Commission hears what we feel
14 about it, because it's still a pilot. It's not approved,
15 is that correct?
16 MR. CARY: That's correct.
17 MS. HOUSEN: Right, it's a pilot program,
18 and I think it's important.
19 MR. CARY: Okay, but all I'm saying is that
20 there should be no complaints from anyone that voted in
21 opposition to selecting an area if we find that we have an
22 off-leash dog area around the lighthouse, you have
23 forfeited your opportunity to
24 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, does anybody want to
25 make a motion to exclude the lighthouse location? Because
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1 we can do that?
2 MS. MEDINA: Sure, I'm make that motion.
3 MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that.
4 MS. MEDINA: The motion is to remove Option
5 or Area Number 3 from any consideration for an off-leash
6 area at the park.
7 MR. HAGOPIAN: We have a second from Mickey.
8 All those in favor?
9
10
11
12
13
14 can say nay.
15
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18
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GROUP: I .
MR. CARY: Seraj?
MR. SABA: Can I sustain from voting?
MR. HELD: No, there no abstaining, sorry.
MR. HAGOPIAN: That's okay, we got urn, you
MR. SABA: Nay.
MR. HELD: Okay. So, it's four to one.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay?
MR. HELD: Thank you.
MR. HAGOPIAN: All right. Thank you.
20 Thanks for your time.
21 MS. MEDINA: Thank you very much.
22 MR. CARY: Thank you, folks. I'm sorry that
23 was so painful. I knew that it would be, and I didn't
24 think it was going to be a 15 minute hearing.
25 MR. HAGOPIAN: This is our last one, right?
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MR. CARY: I mean, there is such compelling
arguments on both sides. It's very difficult. Thank you
for bearing with us.
(Thereupon, the Meeting was concluded.)
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1
2 CERTIFICATION
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA
5 COUNTY OF MIAMI-DADE
6
7 I, Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR, Shorthand
8 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida
9 at Large, do hereby certify that the foregoing Meeting was
10 transcribed by me from a CD from a recording made on the
11 date and at the place as stated in the caption hereto on
12 page 1; that the foregoing computer-aided transcription is
13 a true record to the best of my ability of said
14 proceedings.
15 WITNESS my hand this 28th day of March, 2012
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CHERYL L. JENKINS, RPR
Court Reporter and Notary Public
in and for the State of Florida at Large
Commission #DD 920461
December 27, 2013
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Page I Page3
1 MR. MOONEY: The next item is DRB File
CITY OF MIAMIBEACH 2 Number 22894. This is 1 Washington Avenue, South Pointe
DESIGN REVIEW BOARD 3 Park, and the City of Miami Beach is requesting design
4 review approval for an off-leash dog area within the
5 western portion of South Pointe Park.
6 At the direction of the Commission, two
7 options are being presented to the Design Review Board for
8 the creation of an off-leash dog area. We have members of
City of Miami Beach City Hail 9 the Public Works Department Stuff who will make the
3rd Floor, City Commission Chambers 10 presentation and better explain it.
1700 Convention Center Drive 11 Staff has recommended that Area 3, which
Miami Beach, Florida 33139 12 would be the area proposed to be around the Art in Public
March 6, 2012 13 Lighthouse sculpture not be permitted, and instead Areas 1 9:44a.m. to 11:33 a.m. 14 and 2 be the areas that are approved for the dog leash
15 area, and that if a hedge is required, that the hedge be
16 maintained at a height not to exceed 24 inches.
17 MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, just for the
Item No. 22894 -South Pointe Park 18 benefit of our new member, the design for South Pointe
19 Park is probably one of the most unique, you know,
20 oceanfront park designs perhaps in the world.
21 On its east end, the park meets the
22 transition from an ocean marine environment, from a
23 natural environment into an urban environment. Transcribed from a CD By: 24 The master plan for the park was very Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR , .. 25 carefully designed by George Hargreaves Associates, one of
Page2 Page4
APPEARANCES: 1 the most, kind of outstanding, you know, landscape
JASON HAGOPIAN, CHAIRMAN 2 designers in the United States, done many major parks
LILIA MEDINA 3 throughout the states, and in recognition of the fact that
4 Miami Beach is a city which doesn't have many hills, and
CAROL HOUSEN 5 doesn't have any high points, he created this whole
SERAJ SABA 6 concept of a serpentine dune, to become an elevated
MICKEY MINAGORRI 7 walkway, to help make the transition from the natural
8 environment of the ocean and marine environment, into the
JOHN OLDENBURG
City of Miami Beach Assistant 9 urban environment
Director of Parks & Re<;reation 10 So, on the east side you have the ocean. On
RHONDA GRACIE 11 the south side you have the incredible, you know,
City of Miami Beach Landscape Architect 12 Government Cut, with, you know 120, 150-foot, you know, HILDA FERNANDEZ
City of Miami Beach Assistant City Manager 13 high cruise ships, you know, floating by. So people are
KEVIN SMITH 14 only not looking at the park from street level, they're
Director of Parks & Recreation 15 looking at it from above, they're looking down upon it.
WILLIAM CARY
CMB Assistant Director of Planning Department 16 So, the whole design of the park was done in
THOMAS MOONEY 17 a very kind of comprehensive manner, to provide people the
CMB Preservation and Design Manager 18 ability to go up to 14-feet in height above the park and
DENNIS LAVA 19 see vistas changing as you meander along the serpentine Staff to Art in Public Places
20 trail.
ALSO PRESENT 21 At one point you're looking out to the Jean Culick
Larry Weiman 22 north, when you first enter onto the beach, onto the
-------23 serpentine walk, from the Washington Avenue extension,
24 from the --excuse me, from the --yes, it is the
25 Washington Avenue--no, it's the Ocean Drive extension,
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1 (Pages 1 to 4)
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1 you're looking out, you know, to the north, along the
2 coastline, and then you switch back, and you're looking
3 out over--you know, out over Fisher Island, then you're
4 looking back toward the City, and then you're looking down
5 toward Biscayne Bay, then you're looking back out to the
6 east, and then you descend back down to beach level again.
7 So, the park has different zones and
8 different areas, and the concept was to literally, you
9 know, create that transition, from the beach, to natural
10 dunes, to the formatted serpentine dune, and then the,
11 into the more multi-purpose use, gardens and meadows, as
12 we transition to the west, eventually to the point where
13 we arrive at the incredible new Obstinate Lighthouse,
14 which is another public art project approved by the Board,
15 by, you know, Tobias Rehberger, the very, you know, well
16 known, well established German sculpture, and so now the
17 Board has always been very concerned about preserving the
18 integrity of the park.
19 We had to do a redesign of the playground
20 area, because the playground equipment was not up to the
21 standard that it should have been. It began to
22 deteriorate very quickly, and that was completely
23 replaced. Rhonda Gracie, who is here, did the complete
24 redesign of that, and selected all the furnishings, and we
25 actually got in canopy structures to provide shade and
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the Park's Department, and we feel that their, their basic
inclination to locate the dog, off-leash dog area to the
--directly to the east of the Washington, Washington
Plaza, the extension area, either between that, and then
the one smaller walkway that bisects that kind of meadow
area of the park, is really the most logical, because it's
the most convenient to people that are coming in from
elsewhere in the area south of 5th, to walk their dogs in
the park, so it's readily, they can get in, they can get
out easily.
It's not the major destination areas. The
major destinations areas of the park are further to the
east. You're going to have --the board has already
approved the construction of the new pier, as well. So
that the natural gravitation of traffic is to the --you
know,. toward the east in the park, except for those that
are coming around from the marina, or going to the marina
as they're going to look at the lighthouse in itself. So
we think that's really the logical location
The next issue is, you know, how do you
delineate or define what area is for off-leash purposes?
I think that we can look at that either way. I mean,
obviously Staffs preference would be to have no hedge,
whatever, because we don't want to create another design
element in the park; which was literally intended to be,
Page8
1 all, and that came out beautifully, and it works 1 you know, very simple and smooth and straightforward, so k
2 beautifully with the architecture of the concession 2 all the things that happen around the park are what really ~
3 building. 3 . make the park, you know, such an executory experience, and
4 The Art in Public Places piece, the 4 so we're not recommending, we're not saying, yes, go,
5 Obstinate Lighthouse, is in the location that was 5 ahead and approve a hedge.
6 identified by the, by Hargreaves Consultants for the park, 6 What we're saying is that if the Parks
7 and that was the approved location by the Design Review 7 Department finds that in order to delineate the area for
8 Board as well. 8 the off-leash dog area, if it's necessary to do that so
9 Ironically, that ended up being the interim 9 that owners of dogs know the area that they're limited to,
10 location for the dog park, the off-leash dog area, and so 10 that's something that they can do in the future, if they
11 that's one of the three options that are there for your 11 . wish to do it.
12 consideration today. 12 So we've kind ofleft that option open, and
13 Staff obviously believes that's the worst 13 --but we would absolutely recommend that if we do have
14 possible option, because you really--even though the dog 14 the hedge, that it should be no more than, kept at no more
15 park is only going to be, you know, during certain hours 15 than 24 inches in height, otherwise it's going to become a
16 of the day, the off-leash area, we just don't feel it 16 major landscape feature, which we do not feel would be
17 would be at all appropriate to, you know, place a dog 17 appropriate in a park of this character.
18 park, off-leash dog park necessarily around a public art 18 So, we're recommending kind of the
19 piece, where you want to have children be able to come up 19 combination of Site--was it Site 2 and 3? Or 1 and 2,
20 to it at all times and look up at those, you know, 20 it's 1 and 2, I'm sorry, 1 and 2 combined, rather than the
21 incredible rainbow of colors painted on the undersides of 21 Lighthouse site. So that would be our suggestion to the
22 the cylinders that create that, that lighthouse feature. 22 board, and Rhonda and John and Kevin can further, you
23 And so in looking very carefully at how to 23 know, elaborate.
24 do this, how to create an off-leash dog area, you know, 24 MR. SMITH: Good morning. For the record,
25 for part-time use in the park, we worked very closely with 25 Kevin Smith, director of parks and Recreation.
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Thank you, William, for the introduction. 1 designed as a sea wall.
The item that we have brought before you 2 So, by doing that, we increase the area for
today was well explained by William. 3 the dog owners, almost double it. However, there is a lot
Just a bit ofback history. We've been 4 of trees there. So the area that the dogs run in is
doing a pilot program now in South Pointe Park for an 5 actually within the grassy area inside of the treeline, so :
off-leash area for about 18 months. It has worked very 6 that they don't end up --they tend to want to loop when
successfully. The residents have come together and sort 7 they're running, and this way it will prevent them from,
of monitor their own. 8 like, actually running and banging into some of the trees
The operational hours right now for South 9 and knocking themselves out.
Pointe off-leash area in the--it's currently in the 10 So, the actual area --I have seen it
west, in Area Number 2, that William was referencing, are 11 happen. The actual area will be closer; when you discount
Monday through Friday, from sun--I'm sorry, sunrise to 12 those trees to, the actual area that they currently have,
sun--sunrise to 10:00 a.m. daily, and then from 5:00 --13 which is about 18, 1900 square feet, even though
4:00 until 7:00 on Monday through Friday only, and the 14 technically if you include the tree area it's much larger.
remainder of the time, the area in question, or the areas 15 Also by allowing us to extend it to those )
in question are remained open for public use, public --16 natural barriers, we believe that if--we would not
well, it's all public, but for public access and other 17 necessarily need a hedge, but if needed, it would be a
uses of the park. 18 very low lying hedge, it would be --Ilex Schilling
So, particularly those hours are the 19 (phonetic) would be our recommendation, which is a Florida
off-leash areas. The remainder of the time the dogs are 20 native shrub. It is highly salt tolerant. It grows "
to be retained --be maintained on leashes and are 21 extremely slow. It can handle extreme conditions, the
controlled under theowners on leashes. We have security 22 high PH, and we would look at rec, you know, maintaining
in the park, Code Enforcement is in the park. Our staff 23 that at about 24 inches or so.
are in the park also. 24 At full maturity, which takes about 10
So it is something that started out as a 25 years, it would get to about 36 inches in height, at the
Page 10 Page 12
test program and has worked out very effectively. So, 1 maximum. It takes to sheering, so it would be easy for us
just as a little bit of history in that area. So, to help 2 to maintain at a lower level, if that were needed at a
you make your decisions. 3 later time.
MR. CARY: Thank you. 4 So, we personally prefer taking it to that
MS. GRACIE: Good morning. 5 sidewalk. If we end up with just using and dividing and
MR. CARY: Good morning. 6 going with Area 1, then I believe that you would end up
MS. GRACIE: Rhonda Gracie with Parks and 7 needing some kind of division down the middle of the
Recreation. 8 grassy area to kind of de-mark where that location is, and
The three sites initially, and I agree with 9 we'd prefer not to have that line through the middle of
Staff with regard to the lighthouse location, which is on 10 the turf area.
Site Number 3, the reason that was included in the 11 MS. FERNANDEZ: Ifl may, Chair Members of
beginning was because that was the original site for the 12 the Commission--of the Committee? Hilda Fernandez from
pilot program initially, and that kind of set the tone as 13 the City Managers Office.
to the square footage for the off-leash area. 14 The off-leash program has been working now a
That site was relocated to Area Number 1, 15 little over a year, relatively successfully with
when the construction of the lighthouse was done. So we 16 enforcement at South Pointe Park. I
were asked to present the three locations, and then we've 17 Just to clarify, as William has, this is not
included Area 2, which essentially is Area 1, and 18 a designated dog park. Dog parks are fenced in
extending that to the sidewalk, the cut area. Opposed to 19 environments. We have five of those throughout the city,
having a division down the middle of that grassy area, we 20 six if you count the smaller one on Collins A venue. This
wanted to created natural boundaries using the existing 21 is a designated off-leash area. So, it's very important
sidewalk that you can see, that's to the east, along with 22 for us that it is clear, that the majority of the time
the partial serpentine to the north, and then of course 23 this area is available for any other type of use.
you have the Washington A venue Plaza to the west, and then 24 The idea of including a hedge around that
the --along Government Cut, where it's a raised wall and 25 area was the Commission's suggestion during a public
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1 discussion of the pilot project, and that is why that item
2 is before you today.
3 If we had continued, obviously, without the
4 need for a hedge, we wouldn't be here before you today,
5 but at the end of the day there was a request, during one
6 of the Commission meetings, that we consider placing a
7 hedge. We explained that the placement ofthe hedge would
8 require DRB consideration, and that is why we are here
9 today.
10 The Commission also did not give us specific
direction as to which of the three they preferred. They
said bring it to the DRB, and have the DRB suggest, based
on the possibility of a hedge, et cetera, which of the
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three locations would be preferable.
So we are here today asking for your
consideration of, if there was going to be a hedge, what
would be the preferable location, or what would be the
preferable location as a whole.
This would go back to our Commission for
them to consider your recommendation, in terms ofthe
potential location, as the Commission has to consider
whether to make this a permanent program at South Pointe
Park.
What is very important for us is whatever,
if there is a decision to put a hedge, and we can come
Page 14
back with an explanation that it might not be necessary
with Option 2 to put a hedge, which is the larger west
lawn, clearly, you know, the expectation would be, if
there is a hedge, that it be done in such a way that makes
it clear and obvious that the general public can access
this space at any time, whether there are dogs there
during the off-leash hours, or even during the other hours
of the day, not create a barrier that makes it seem as if
it's a fenced in area, because that's not what it's
intended to be, which is why it's recommended to be a low
hedge, that there be multiple openings around the hedge,
to invite people to go into the space during the day, when
that is not an off-leash area, and they can certainly go
in the space when it is an off-leash area if they want to,
but that is one of the concerns we had, to continue to
make sure everyone understood this is intended to be an
off-leash area, not an enclosed dog park, but rather an
amenity to that entire park, and that entire community.
Thank you very much for your consideration
today.
MR. CARY: Also, Mr. Chairman, Dennis Lava
(phonetic) is here today. Dennis is Staff to the Art in
Public Places Committee, and so if you have any questions
relative to the site that surrounds the Art in Public
Places, the Obstinate Lighthouse, Dennis is available, if
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you'd like to ask him anything.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you.
Is there anybody from the public that wishes
to speak on this application?
MS. CULICK: Yes, I do.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Please approach the
microphone. State your name and address.
MS. CULICK: Hello. My name is Jean Culick
(phonetic). I live at 400 South Pointe Drive. I'm a
13-year resident, and I can explain to you, I walk daily
in the park, and I love this park. I saw it constructed,
and I'm afraid that I have to dispute the facts that have
been presented.
The multiple use of the park has been
seriously unbalanced by the extension, especially the
December extension of sunset to 10:00 a.m., and 4:00p.m.
to 7:00p.m.
You are fully aware that in this climate,
that--those are the best hours of the day. People,
elderly people, the Orthodox community nearby, used to go
and sit under the trees in the afternoon, read their
books, people from the nursing homes were wheeled out by
the attendants or their relatives, young couples,
students, nannies teaching little children how to walk on
the grass, which is a soft fall for the babies, all these
Page 16
people have been driven away by the heavy pollution caused
by this influx of 50, 60 dogs, over six hours a day,
urinating, polluting the ground.
In effect, the weekend hours, and those
other non-restricted hours are a danger to the public,
because in this climate, with no rain, the ureal salts
clings to the soil, and to the grass, and the vestiges of
the feces, obviously, and this is dangerous.
I would like you to put up some notices to
say to people, do not use, do not go into that area. It
is heartbreaking for me to see people having a birthday,
spread out, and sitting on that grass, which is so heavily
polluted. I have just seen, just before that, the dogs
running there.
It is a really grave situation, on top of
which the dog owners are definitely not self-policing.
They are disdainful and shabbily rude to the security
guards, who are doing an impossible job.
There is no way to delineate these
boundaries, there is no way. The dog owners' attitude,
and this is the least rude one I have heard is, what's the
difference? They have been unleashing as soon as they
enter by Washington A venue, or by Continuum, or by the
Beach Road.
As for the marina, they're coming in from
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1 there, and they consider the Lighthouse area as still an 1 taken to the berms, they're sitting there with their backs
2 off-leash park. 2 to the cars, the dogs are running over the hills, into the
3 If any member of the public, or a security 3 shrubberies, round, back again, and what's more, these big
4 guard said, that dog should be on a leash, as I did to a 4 dogs and little dogs are fighting. We are going to have
5 young man, whose dog --he was talking on the phone, the 5 the most grotesque accidents, a mixture of cars, little
6 dog had defecated by the rocks, where all the brides, and 6 babies, all these big and small dogs.
7 their quinces, and the tourists take pictures, it's the 7 It is really ridiculous that you are
8 heaviest usage in the evenings, 4:00 to 7:00, sunset time, 8 considering giving over this wonderful vista of green
9 tourists are coming to photograph, there is throngs of 9 lawns and coconut plantations that were in visage, as
10 people, I said to him, are you aware --he was furious 10 Mr. Cary explained so well, by this well classed
11 with me, and gave me a mouthful. 11 architect, and you're giving it over, the most expensive
12 So, you know, it sounds wonderful in theory, 12 pieces of real estate. 33139, didn't they just say that
13 but this is not appropriate for a world class park, which 13 was the top ten ZIP codes in the country, we're giving it
14 is so beautiful, has varied walks. The dog owners should, 14 over to the dogs. You will be a laughing stock. That
15 in fact, be walking their dogs. In fact, they're sitting 15 park will not be a pleasant place.
16 on the berm, that lovely little hilly area, and I dispute 16 Thank you very much for listening to me.
17 that that is not a main entrance, because parents and 17 I'm not used to talking to the public, but I hope I've put
18 little kids come running in, and because there is.a lack 18 my point here.
19 of hills, they run up there and they tumble down. I mean, 19 MR. CARY: Thank you for your comments. Is
20 this is such a delight to see; I see it from my balcony, I 20 there anybody else that would like to speak on this
21 have an overview of this, a grandstand view. You are all 21 application?
22 welcome to come and have a drink and watch this if you . 22 Please approach the microphone, and state
23 don't want to go to the park, but it is, it is really sad 23 · your name and address.
24 to see how this park will deteriorate. 24 MR. WEIMAN: Good morning. My name is
25 The Park's Department does a brilliant job, 25 Larry Weiman (phonetic). I'm a resident at 50 South
Page 18
they are trying so hard, and they've maintained it 1
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beautifully, but we know that the urine--yes, let's give 2
them applause, but the urine --yeah --but the urine, the 3
4 urine, as anybody who has had a lawn, and whose neighbor's 4
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dog uses it regularly, stains brown. So, we're going to 5
have a dust bowl there. 6
7 It is really a very serious situation, and
8 it is unbalanced, and you cannot possibly hope to cope
9 with four --two-foot hedges, two-foot hedges. They're
10 Great Danes, they're standard Poodles, they're Alsatians,
11 there are big Labradors. I've seen two big Labradors
12 streaking out from that shrubby area behind the berms, and
13 the lady had a long dress, and she was trying to control
14 those two dogs. They were out by the Smith & Wollensky
15 drop. It is very dangerous. The only good thing about
16 the lighthouse area, was that it was furthest away from
17 the cars ..
18 Now, the berm, and the area where all these
19 dogs are scurrying around, is 30 yards, those shrubberies,
20 the hedge you're talking about is 30 yards away from the
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main roadway. The dogs are out of control.
The owners are sitting on the berm, chatting
23 with each other, and there is a snobbery between the dog
24 owners, because most of them don't want their dogs to mix
25 with the main lawn users. So they're the ones who have
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Page20
Pointe, and I'm also on the board ofthe SoBe K-9
organization, and we were involved with the Parks
Department, and with the counsel in the implementation and
the operation of the program.
I'm not sure that this is the appropriate
forum to be talking about the nature of the dog park being
there or not, I'm not sure that's what's before us today.
I think it's more an issue of location of the park, and
design of the hedge, if there is to be a hedge.
From the standpoint --so, to address those
first, from the standpoint of the majority of the dog
owners, from my personal standpoint, the location that
Parks has suggested, and sort of the extension of the Area
2, away from the lighthouse, we think is correct, we think
it's the best practical place for it to be.
The lighthouse area has come out
extraordinarily well, and as someone who is in the park
four or five times a day, I can tell you it really is one
of the great pieces of urban park design, the sculpture is
wonderful, and the use of that area now has grown, so that
I don't think it would be appropriate to relocate the dogs
back there.
The success of these dog off-leash programs
is generally a question of trying to minimize the contact
between the dogs and the other users of the park, and some
I.
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1 of the issues you just heard described, I think are very
2 much the exception to the rule, and Parks, and I think
3 Hilda can verify, that the level of complaint has fallen
4 dramatically from the initial operation of the pilot
5 program, and I think even further since we've relocated to
6 that middle point, because there is a natural separation
7 with the edge of the cut walk, and with the walks that
8 surround it, and that separation tends to minimize
9 opportunities for passersby, people on bicycles, people on
10 skateboards, mothers with children, to come in contact
11 with the dogs, and while a 24-inch hedge is not going to
12 contain a Great Dane, they do actually, if you're there,
13 and I am twice a day, if you're there, the dogs do
14 actually obey and stay contained within those boundaries,
15 even that little, I guess, 18-inches, or 20-inches, that
16 the cut walk is raised up over the grass area, tends to
17 keep the dogs in boundary.
18 Now, while there are clearly cases where the
19 dogs leave the boundary and come back, or leave the
20 boundary and are called back, by and large, if you've been
21 there and seen the operation of it, it's become a
22 tremendous community event, a tremendous source of people
23 coming together, neighbors knowing each other.
24 There are, in fact, 40 or 50 dogs at any
25 given time in the evening, and it really has been .a
Page22
1 tremendous use of the park, tremendous community, at a
2 time when there are plenty of areas of the park for people
3 to do other things. It's one of many grass and public
4 areas there.
5 We've worked closely with the SoBe and
6 Mothers Committee, and they don't have any objections to
7 it SoBe, itself, hasn't had any objections to the way
8 it's operating, because there is plenty of opportunity for
9 people to migrate over to the playground, or to the other
10 open grass areas between the playground and the cut, and
11 so from an operational standpoint, I think it's working
12 quite a bit better than you would have inferred from the
13 prior comments, and the enforcement matters are things
14 that we, as dog owners, do take strongly, we do try to
15 self-police our other members.
16 One does not observe any large amount of
17 unclean dog waste there. The park is sprinkled, so I
18 imagine that some of the problems that you just heard
19 alleged about the dog urine there, are not really an
20 issue, and even though the grass is taking use from the
21 dogs running, and from people using it, from my
22 observation it's no different than the use that the grass
23 is taking on the other side, where it's used by people
24 picnicking, and soccer, and the other activities that go
25 on in the park.
Page23
1 So, in summary, the dog owners themselves
2 are very happy to keep it where it is. I don't believe it
3 should be relocated back to the lighthouse either, and if
4 the board is amenable to the placement of the shrubbery,
5 at the request of a couple of the Commissioners, we have
6 no objections to that, and think that the design that
7 Parks has put forward is fine.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you for your comments ...
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MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I should just
clarify for the board, that the City Commission, of
course, has to take into consideration the needs of all of
the users ofthe park, and the issue of whether there
should or should not be an off-leash area in the park is a
policy decision by the City Commission, not by this board,
and what this board has been requested to look at is what,
of the three areas that have been identified, are the best
areas for the off-leash dog area, and what the--the
configuration, or conditions of that area should be.
It's not this Board's responsibility to make
a policy as to whether or not there can be, and you can
see there are very excellent and passionate arguments on
both sides. There, you know, always will be, and both
speakers have spoken brilliantly in representing their own
perspectives.
Page24
MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of this item,
we will have to pick Area 1, 2 or 3, that's what you're
telling me?
MR. CARY: You'll have to select one of the
5 three areas, or the combination of 1 and 2, which is the
6 recommendation of the Staff, and I think which is the area
7 that the Parks Department supports, because it's
8 delineated by the cut walk, which is 16-inches above the
9 meadow area, and as you said, that was a specific design
10 dementia that was selected, so that you could have seating
11 along the --along the cut walk, to look both out to the
12 cut, and look into the meadow area, and then the three
13 walkways would define the other three sides.
14 MR.HAGOPIAN: Okay. Wewilldoourbestto
15 keep that in consideration.
16 It's a little--I mean, for me, personally,
17 it's going to be a little bit tricky, because I see all
18 the issues that both sides have been talking about, and
19 I'll talk a little bit about it when it's my turn to
20 speak, but I'd like to hear from my other board members.
21 Okay. Carol.
22 MS. HOUSEN: I have one question of Staff,
23 and I do understand, thank you, Mr. Cary for clarifying
24 our position, that we're here to help select the proper
25 location, and approve the shrubbery that's going over it,
'~
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but I have a question of Staff. What's the total acreage
of South Pointe Park?
MR. CARY: Is it 18 acres?
MS. FERNANDEZ: I think it's 22 acres.
MR. CARY: 22 acres?
MS. FERNANDEZ: But of course you've got the
areas that are dunes and you've got the buildings.
MS. HOUSEN: Right, right. No, because I
totaled up the three areas, which came up to 70,000 square
feet, which is just under 1.2 acres of proposal off-leash
dogs.
MS. FERNANDEZ: And we wouldn't recommend
all three. We're just looking for one area in particular.
MS. HOUSEN: Right. Okay. No, no, that was
my question. I wasn't sure of the total of the park.
Well, I would never think to recommend all
three, and never would I put it by the public art, which
is the lighthouse, but I think my personal opinion on 1
and 2, is just to take into consideration, it should be
delineated whether it be shrubby or a fence, only because
it's not a dog park, and elderly people, and children --I
go out with grandchildren, one is horrified of dogs, the
amount of people that we're loosing in the park, and I'm
an animal supporter, but I think that we need to not be
taking away the prime of our park for the dogs. I think
Page 26
either designate part of it for dogs, that's not our
opinion here, I mean, it's not our position to make that
selection, but that needs to be considered in choosing the
one area of the off-leash, because it could be an unsafe
situation to an elderly or a child, and I think the City
needs to take that into consideration. It's just my point
of it, but I would never think to put it anywhere near
Area 3, that's prime property, and I think it should be
the people's place to share it. That's my opinion.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you, Carol.
MS. MEDINA: Well, thank you for the
presentation. It is a tricky decision, in that there is a
high demand for an off-leash area, and there are many
apartment buildings there, high density condominiums. You
know, as a person who had a white Shepard, I am, you know,
in support of the use, but on the other hand, there is
also the issues that have been brought up by the public,
and so-called snobbery, and sort of non-compliance of, you
know, due diligence, as far as cleaning up and restricting
your dogs to the area.
First of all, I think Area Number 3 is
definitely off for consideration. I mean, I was there the
other day, it's a--the Tubias artwork, public artwork is
just awesome at night. During the day you have the FEC --
you have the slip next door, where you can watch not only
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Page27
the Government Cut, but actually be on the edge of the
water there. So I think that area should not even be
considered.
I understand the rationale for having a
hedge now. At first I thought, well, you know, the
Hargreaves original plan, the master plan for the park was
to keep it as open as possible, but if there are issues
from the public, as far as folks not containing their
dogs, ·maybe--I don't know if the hedge is going to work,
frankly, but I think, if anything, there is some
delineation that would help keep the dogs in the area.
I would really want to know a little bit
more from the Parks Department, the monitoring and the
compliance, because you said that, you know, things have
been working well, but on the other hand we hear from the
public otherwise.
I think Area Number 1, which is where it's
been used now as the pilot area, would be, for me,
personally the preferred area. It's 18,000 square feet.
I. don't know how that compares to, even though this is not
a bark park, dog park, the other seven parks that exist.in
the area, how big are they in comparison to Area Number 1
at 18,000 square feet, are they typically about the same
size?
MS. GRACIE: Most the areas within South
Page 28
Beach dog park per dog run are approximately that. We
have at Flamingo Park, we have two dog run areas, they're
about 20,000 square feet each. At this particular point
in time, they're a little bit smaller before we did the
expansion. At the RDA, which is right off of Collins
Avenue and 2nd, that space is significantly smaller, it's
about 6,000 square feet and it crosses the street at
Washington A venue, at the dog park there at 2nd and
Washington, that's about 24,000 square feet. So, it's a
bit more.
MS. MEDINA: Yes, I think that ---
MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, I was going to say,
just ifl may, the --in our research we found that a
really usable dog park is approximately one acre, or a
little bit more, and as a matter of fact, we just opened a
--or are finishing up North Shore open space, and it's
about that size, and we found --what we've also noticed
is since we opened up both areas, because of the trees
that are in the western section of--sort of in Area
Number 1, having both sections open is basically giving
you almost the square footage of the 18,000, when you
combine them, that has open space for the dogs to run, and
we have also found that having the open space area, and
expanding it a bit, it just naturally reduces the wear and
tear on one section. So, having it a bit more spread
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1 apart, or open has also been useable, and useful to us as 1 MS. GRACIE: Okay. So what we're talking
2 far as a maintenance issue. 2 about, in Area 1 in the aerial here, Area 1 is half of
3 MS. MEDINA: So as far as the existing trees 3 this lawn. Area 2 would be the entire lawn area.
4 there, you're not counting in, if you're saying 18,000 4 So, as you can see, in this area, you don't
5 with Area 1 and 2, you're not counting in then that area 5 have as many trees that are now there. So, the area, the
c ' 6 where the plan --the landscape exists, as not usable, if 6 land mass in size is significantly smaller, but the total
7 you will, because that's where the dogs would not go, is 7 square footage includes those tree areas.
8 that what you're saying? 8 MS. MEDINA: Excuse me, so the total square
9 MR. SMITH: Well, I think what we're saying 9 footage for Area 1 --this sheet that we have here LA 02
10 is that when we have observed the dogs, and the way that 10 says that Area 1 is 18,000, right?
11 they're using the area now, they tend--dogs tend to want 11 MS. GRACIE: Correct, Area 1 is
12 to open --get into an open run area. They may run 12 approximately 18,000 square feet, including the tree
13 through the trees and, you know, but more to the point, 13 areas. Area 2 would be Area 1, plus the area to the west
14 when an owner is throwing the ball, or if the dogs are 14 of it, taking it all the way to the sidewalk, that is a
15 playing and chasing each other, they will tend to go into 15 combined area of34,000 square. feet. That does include
16 the open spaces, where they can get some; you know, some 16 the tree lined area.
17 directional run, rather than kind of going in circles or 17 As Kevin had mentioned earlier, the AKA
18 around the trees. 18 recommends individual dog run areas in a dog park,
19 So, although the trees are nice to have, and 19 enclosed dog park to be approximately one half acre to one
20 there is shade, and it's a nice environment for the --but 20 acre. The reason being is that it makes it a little bit
21 the time that the dog owners are using that off-leash 21 easier for maintenance, a little less wear and tear. It
22 area, and I do want to stress that, there is -" there are 22 also is a recommended size for multiple dogs, as well as
23 times, it's not as if this is an exclusive area just for 23 being an area that is where dog owners can keep their
24 the dog owners, the park is used predominately throughout 24 animals under both visual and voice commands, without them
25 the day by a lot of different people, and visited 25 getting too far ahead of them. You don't want it too
"1 Page 30 Page 32
I
1 throughout the day by a lot of different folks, and it's 1 large, and you don't it want it too small.
2 not just the dog owners that go in that area. They may be 2 Thank you.
3 in that area when the times permit it. However, they are 3 MR. MINAGORRI: I see here that these
4 not there when the times are not --you know, they are not 4 hedges, proposed hedges that, you say that it would take
5 specified to do so. 5 10 years for them to grow to 36 inches, but we want to
6 MS. MEDINA: And the hours available here is 6 maintain them at 24 inches. What's the width of these ., 7 really not an issue here as well, right? We're not ---7 hedges? Because I see the proposal having, not just one I 8 MR. SMITH: No, that's a policy that's 8 straight line of hedges but, like, multiple. So, what
9 established by the City Commission. 9 would be the total width of hedges that we would have?
10 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I still think Area 10 MS. GRACIE: It would end up being about two
11 Number 1, which has been proven to be effective, according 11 and a half to three foot wide, that includes a. little bit
12 to the Parks Department, would be my preferred 12 of a boundary for mulch on both sides, and for edging.
13 recommendation, and with a hedge to define it somewhat. 13 MR. MINAGORRI: But looking at--·
14 MR. SMITH: If I may be clear, what we are 14 MS. GRACIE: And the hedge, yes, it would be
15 saying has proven to be effective. If you're calling 15 staggered rows.
16 Area 1 the two pieces---16 MR. MINAGORRI: So then each of the hedges
17 MS. MEDINA: No, no, Area 1 ---17 would be two, to two and a half feet wide. So, we would
18 MR. SMITH: You're talking about just the 18 have like six or seven feet?
19 west section? 19 MS. GRACIE: No, you would have a maximum of
20 MS. MEDINA: Right. 20 three feet. They're staggered ---
21 MR. CARY: Maybe, it might help if, Rhonda, 21 MR. MINAGORRI: Looking at the photo on LA
22 could you joint point it out on the aerial photograph, 22 02, and looking at your drawings, where you would have,
23 what Area 1 would be? 23 what seems to be two hedges, what is the width of each of
24 You probably need the travelling mike, I'm 24 those hedges? Because they look to be a lot wider than
25 sorry. If somebody can pass it to you. 25 they are higher.
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MS. GRACIE: It's a double stagger row. The
two rows in width would be three foot. Showing them at 18
inches, at about the maturity level, they may get a little
bit bigger, that bed line would expand at a later time.
When we first install them, they will end up being
significantly smaller.
MR. MINAGORRI: So we're talking about --
MS. GRACIE: So we're talking about ---
MR. MINAGORRI: --24 inch high by about --
MS. GRACIE: Three feet.
MR. MINAGORRI: --three feet.
12 MS. GRACIE: But in the beginning, we will
13 not even be able to fmd plant material greater than one
14 by one. If we're lucky, we might fmd some plant material
15 18 by 18. It's extremely expensive, because of the slow
16 rate. So initially you're not going to have very much
1 7 space at all right there.
18 MR. MINAGORRI: So --
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MS. GRACIE: It's planned availability.
MR. MINAGORRI: --on the north side, how
come there is no hedges on that north side? Is there,
like, a wall?
MS. GRACIE: We have the raise---
MR. MINAGORRI: The raise---
MS. GRACIE: No, that's the south side,
Page 34
that's the Government Cut side, and that's where you
already have that 16 inch raise, Government Cut walk.
MR. MINAGORRI: Okay.
MS. GRACIE: I can show that in the
5 photograph, in the one that I'm showing right now --
6 MR. MINAGORRI: Yes, I see it, yes.
7 MS. GRACIE: --you can see how many trees
8 there actually, and palms that are in that area.
9 MR. MINAGORRI: I see it here.
10 MS. GRACIE: And then you can kind of see in
11 this photograph here, that raised seat wall, we feel that
12 that creates that actual barrier, and that a--right, and
13 that's from that sidewalk edge, you see that shadow, that
14 creates that natural barrier, that would be about the
15 height of what the shrubs will end up being, for the
16 majority of the life span, they will eventually get to
17 about 24, but that's going to be quite some time down the
18 road --
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MR. MINAGORRI: Okay.
MS. GRACIE: --before they'll reach that
maturity level.
MR. MINAGORRI: Two quick questions. So
we're keeping the landscaping intact, with all the palm
trees. We're just adding hedges, and then I see here,
like, three entrances.
1 My question is, it's normal for these
2 animals to stay within a contained area, even if they're
3 off a leash. Is that something that the gentleman from
Page 35
4 the AKA knows? I think you mentioned something, that even
5 though we're going to have these openings, how do you
6 really prevent an animal from just not running out of
7 the---
8 MS. FERNANDEZ: Hilda Fernandez, again, from
9 the City Managers Office.
10 Frankly we can't prevent it, and I think
11 that was one of the concerns that prompted the Commission
12 to look at the concept of a hedge. When the site was the
13 area around the public art piece, you had some natural
14 barriers, you had the bay walk on one side, a walkway on
15 the one side, another walkway where the boat basin is at,
16 and then you had the rocks, so there was a natural
17 barrier.
18 We have signs, we do have signs, plenty of
19 signs on the edge of that that says off-leash hours, when
20 and how and what have you, and the dog owners would
21 generally make sure that their dogs remained within those
22 physical, natural physical barriers, which was in this
23 case just walkways, and on one side Government Cut.
24 When the decision was made to relocate, we
25 did something a little bit strange, because really we only
Page 36 .~
1 had three demarcated areas that we could demarcate in the
2 west lawn. When we cut that west lawn in half, we had to
3 put a sign up, which was very awkward and, frankly, became
4 a safety issue.
5 So people naturally, instead of just using
6 that little comer, half of that section, started using
7 the entire section, because we didn't want to put a sign
8 in the middle of a park that people could run into. So we
9 had signs on the other areas, but they were really using
1 0 that entire area.
11 Does that mean that dogs --and I have been
12 there--that dogs don't jump up on the cut walk
13 momentarily or whatever, responsible dog owners take care
14 of their pets, and we see that everywhere. We have plenty
15 of dog parks in our City, and we continue to get
16 complaints about people letting their dogs loose, with a
17 dog park in the park, at the time they get out of the car,
18 even though they could just walk 50 feet and put the dog
19 in a, you know, in an actual dog park, they do that now.
20 So, what we find is, generally, that the dog
21 owners are--when there is a physical barrier, such as
22 whether it's a natural physical barrier, or in this case a
23 suggestion of a hedge, they tend to keep their dogs in
24 there, but at the end of the day, dogs don't read signs,
25 they're going to go wherever they're going to go. It's up
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to really the dog owners to figure out, hey, my dog isn't
where he's supposed to be.
We do do active enforcement at the park, not
just during the off-leash hours. We go during the day to
make sure that they're not off-leash in the off-leash
area They cannot be off-leash at 2:00 in the afternoon,
anywhere in the --first of all, they can't be anywhere in
that park except with --in this location during the
designated hours off-leash.
Does that mean we don't find people in the
dune area? We have one particular guy on a bicycle who
loves to leave his dog loose all the time. We issue
violations. There are ticketed offenses. We work with
the police. We work with the park. We work with
sanitation, and code compliance. We do dog details at all
of our parks, because this is a concern for a lot of our
residents, but in particular on the off-leash issue in
South Pointe Park we do enforc~.
But if I could just go back to, Ms. Medina
mentioned the issue of the 18,000 square feet, let me --
we had initially tried to give them a comparable space by
doing Option 1 when we relocated them temporarily because
of the construction of the Art in Public Places piece. ..
A couple of things happened. That also
coincided with the South Point Right of Way Project, where
Page 38
we took a lot of trees, and all off a sudden were able to
plant a lot of wonderful new palm trees in South Point
Park, specifically in the west lawn. So we did have
enhanced landscaping that has occurred, coincidently, in
the last year, while we were also, at a·portion of which,
using that part of the park.
So we did hear from dog owners, when this
issue came to the Commission, where they said, that little
section is now so full of trees, that the open green space
has been diminished. So, give us the entire section, that
they thought they had all along, all the way to the
walkway, because now we have so much trees around the
edge, they're really, for purpose oflong runs, throwing
the ball far, so Fitto can run, you know, whatever, 50
yards to get a ball, we've lost a lot, it's been
diminished if you leave it in that little space, with all
the new trees that have been planted.
So when we went to the Commission, we were
--that's one of the things we said, you know, these are
the options, Option 1, or take it to the walkway, we have
some natural boundaries, it's now walkways on all three
sides, and the elevated cut walk, which is a differential,
about the height of a hedge, on the south side, and that
was one of the recommendations, which is presented as
Option B, but why Option 1 --Option 2, rather, why
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Option 1 has been an issue for a lot of the--it was an
issue for a lot of the dog owners, because they felt
really the size got diminished with the new plantings.
Those plantings were not the original
plantings. If you just said linear square feet, it was
18,000, comparable to Art in Public Places, but when you
consider all the trees from open space, you know,
perspective, the dogs owner feel it's a little less than
18,000.
MR. MINAGORRI: One last question, Hilda --
MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir.
MR. MINAGORRI: --is there any plans to do rt
any benches or anything for pet owners to sit down? ki
MS. FERNANDEZ: That would be, obviously, IT
the next issue we'd have to consider. There are
benches --what ends up happening with the cut walk side,
is that because it is elevated, people right now just sit
there, you know, that's where they typically sit to watch
their pets.
We haven't really talked about whether we
would place benches on the other side, and they sit on ·the I.?
berm that's on the north side of it, because it is an
elevated berm.
You know, we did have benches around the,
you know, Art in Public Places piece, that was part of the
Page40
original plan, and people sat on the elevated cut walk 1:1
there as well to watch their dogs, when it was in the 1:~
Public Art Piece, but really at this point you have a k natural seating area created by that elevated cut walk,
which made this --why it made this area preferable for
some of the folks, because, wow, you know, we had this
whole area where we can sit and, you know, be with our
dogs, and watch our dogs, which hopefully they're doing,
obviously, we hope.
So, again, the issue right now is hedge, no
hedge, square hedge, you know, that's really the reason
why we're before you today.
The program worked without a hedge, but when
we were having to deal with a permanent location, a I~ suggestion was made, that to address some concerns, maybe
some low lying line hedge to create a better physical 11
barrier beyond a walkway would be preferred and, you know,
that's why the item is before you today.
MR. CARY: Again, the Staff has recommended
just allowing the hedge to be an option. We're not
recommending that you require a hedge. We're saying that,
let the Parks Department, the administration see how the
program is working out without a hedge. If they find that
they need one, we put a condition in there whereby they
can have one, but the height should not exceed 24 inches,
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1 and it should be of a certain slow growing variety that is 1 is --you've got to be prepared that you're going to have
2 salt tolerant and all of that. 2 a tom up lawn, maybe not dismal, like the lady said, but
3 So---3 it's not going to be very attractive over time. i 4 MR. HAGOPIAN: Saraj. 4 So, my recommendation is to look for another
5 MR. SABA: Good morning, and thanks for 5 location. If that can't be done, then definitely no
6 coming. 6 hedge, because I think that's really going to disrupt the
7 I'm going to start by saying that I have 7 flow and the harmony of the park.
8 owned dogs before in my life, and I love animals, but I 8 MS. FERNANDEZ: Ifi can, Mr. Chair, just to
9 don't have any now, and that's primarily because I have a 9 answer, when the park was reaching its final design, it
10 two year old boy, and. a ten month old boy, and I have 10 . went through its voter process, there was discussion about
11 enough excitement in my life without a dog, but the 11 the fact that this was not going to have a dog park within
12 comparison is that dogs are a lot of work for an owner, 12 it, a designated dog park, which is a fenced in dog park,
13 obviously, and, you know, when you mix a dog with the 13 and when the park was fmally opened, there were multiple
14 general public, and people that don't have dogs, there is 14 meetings of our Board --of our Commission Committees
15 bound to be some conflicts, and that's generally why, when .15 about this particular subject.
16 you have a dog park, it's completely separate. 16 The end product was the creation of a dog
17 In most, you know, park situations, when 17 park on Washington and Alton --Washington and 2nd Street,
18 you're designing a park, you have--you have that sort of 18 two blocks north of the park, and that is a fenced in dog
19 a discussion before the park is designed. 19 park, we took an open spaced park, diagonally across from
l:l 20 You know, I wasn't involved in the design of 20 Collins little dog park, and created a large dog park,
21 this park, so I can only imagine that that either wasn't 21 with a water feature, benches, everything that a dog park
22 part of the discussions of designing the park, or it, you 22 typically is, like the dog park we have at .Pine Tree, the li
23 know, wasn't important to the people at the time. 23 one we have at Flamingo, the one we have at Belle Isles,
24 But regardless, I mean, Hhink, you know, 24 like the brand new one we're building in North Beach, we
25 that really there needs to be another location, if there 25 built a dog park on Washington and 2nd specifically to
Page42 Page44
1 is going to be a dog park. I mean, you said it's not 1 address the concerns of the dog owning community south of
2 really a dog park, but I don't really see how you can have 2 5th, that this park, when it reopened, did not permit --
3 a dog park, or even a quasi dog park in a real park. 3 did not provide for a dog area. I(
4 That being said, if it has to be somewhere 4 To be clear, apparently when the park,
5 in this, in this park, I wouldn't put it in any of the 5 before it was closed down, and shut down for construction,
1;\
6 three locations, quite honestly. I think anywhere you put 6 was being informally and, frankly, illegally used as dog ~ 7 a hedge in those locations is going to, is going to 7 off-leash area. So that you understand, the City code,
8 disrupt the harmony of the design, the flow of the park. 8 let alone the County code, did not allow the designation
9 I mean, so all three of those locations are out, as far as 9 of an off-leash area.
10 I'm concerned. 10 It was because of the dog owning community
11 If it had to be somewhere within the 11 that came to the City and said, great, we have a dog park
12 boundaries of the park, I would look at other locations, 12 on Washington, but we still want an off-leash area in
13 or I would look at somewhere off, you know, site, but 13 Washington Park, but the City had to go to the County and
14 that's not an option. 14 change County code to provide for enabling language to
15 You know, I mean, I have been in the 15 allow this City to designate an off-leash area.
16 planning and design --I've been involved in the planning 16 So there has been a lot of discussion. We
17 and design of several parks and, you know, it's--I have 17 actually had to go and change County code to permit the
18 never seen anything like this really happen successfully. 18 designation of an off-leash area in our City as a result
19 There is always conflicts and, you know, dog owners, as 19 of multiple discussions on this very issue.
20 responsible as they are, they can clean up after their 20 Ultimately the Commission chose to recommend
21 pet, a hundred percent of the dog owners can pick up after 21 a pilot program to provide for off-leash hours, limited
22 their pet, but they can't stop the dogs from running and, 22 hours, in an identified location, which is the pilot
23 you know, the cause of the dog, you know, bringing up the 23 program that has been on-going now since we were able to
24 sod, the urine of the dog, which nobody can pick up, is 24 change County code, and that was in December of2010.
25 going to deteriorate the sod, and so anywhere you put this 25 The problem is right now, that before the
:, ·~···~·.• ·•V-a;w·•· •«•k·'"·· ••m·•
,.._ ..
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1 Commission makes a fmal determination on the off-leash, 1
2 they have said we want to take a look at adding, 2
3 potentially, a hedge somewhere around wherever the 3
4 off-leash area is going to be as a component of that 4
5 designated off-leash area. 5
6 But in answer to your question, yes, there 6
7 was discussion about a dog park, and a decision was made 7
8 to build a dog park on Washington Avenue, two blocks north 8
9 of the park, but in addition to that, there was a 9
10 determination by our Commission to also provide for 10
11 off-leash hours at South Pointe, and we've proceeded with 11
12 the pilot project as a result of the Commission's 12
13 direction. 13
14 MR. SABA: Is that dog park used? 14
15 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, very well used,· 15
16 including the Collins Park one, diagonally, there is one . 16
17 across from Big King (phonetic), it's a very small one, 17
18 and diagonal from tha,t, on the Washington --on Washington 18
19 and 2nd, because they're both on 2nd, is the larger dog 19
20 park, it has a water feature, it's a nice, you know, area. . 20
21 We, you know, went to the --that was what the Commission 21
22 concluded, rather than building a permanent dog park at 22
23 South Pointe Park, in response to concerns about 23
24 aesthetics, and how that would impact the design, the 24
25 original design and intent of that park, beautiful park. 25
Page46
1 MR. CARY: And it's interesting, Hilda, 1
2 because that park at 2nd and Washington was originally 2
3 designed as a wonderful people park. 3
4 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes. 4
5 MR. CARY: Especially for kids, it had a 5
6 little auditorium area and all ofthat, and then because 6
7 of the desire by local residents to have a dog park, we 7
8 then had to completely redesign it, Rhonda did a complete 8
9 redesign to make it exclusively for dogs. So it is 9
10 really, as you say, it's a dog park, it's not an off-leash 10
11 area. So, now we will actually have two dog parks and an 11
12 off-leash area. 12
13 MS. FERNANDEZ: Right. 13
14 MR. CARY: So it's kind of a dog heaven. 14
15 MS. FERNANDEZ: If you're south of 5th. 15
16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, I completely agree with 16
17 Seraj, and for the record, I have two dogs. So, I'm very 17
18 familiar with what dogs--well, what my dogs do, and how 18
19 they behave, and how they don't behave. 19
20 So, I just have a few questions. You had 20
21 mentioned that the ideal size for an off-leash area would 21
22 be --maybe be an acre. 22
23 Does --how many --tell me where the acre 23
24 sites are the city has now, that are off-leash. 24
25 MS. FERNANDEZ: I think we're referring to 25
Page47
it like a dog park.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
MS. FERNANDEZ: The typical thing is like a
fenced in dog park.
MS. GRACIE: A typical fenced in dog park
would consist of two dog runs, an acre in size total, with
each side being approximately one half acre.
The reason that you would have two sides is
so that way, if one side becomes heavily denuded, you can
close one side and still keep another side open. It also
allows you to have one side designated for 25 pounds and >
under only, and the other side open to any size dog. · 1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
MS. GRACIE: And then what you do is you
rotate them, and what that does is that allows us, from an
operational standpoint, to be able to rotate the sides,
because the bigger dogs will tear up the site faster. So
we would periodically--and we do this now at Flamingo
Park, at the North Beach dog park, which is up at North
Shore Open Space Park, we --and Pine Tree, we
automatically rotate those sides, as we start to see it
denude; so that way we end up replacing a smaller amount
of sod; and we're able to actually fence. off that area
that we're replacing without actually closing that dog
run~
Page48
The dog owners are respectful of that, and
then we're able to keep both sides open, and we're able to
manage it a little bit better.
MS. FERNANDEZ: So in answer to your
question, the North Shore Open Space Park, dog park, is
approximately --which is a brand new dog park, about an
acre .
MR. HAGOPIAN: Unfenced.
;
MS. FERNANDEZ: It's a fenced dog park. li
MR. HAGOPIAN: Oh, fenced; okay. ~
MS. FERNANDEZ: This is the only designated iii
off-leash area in the entire city, is in South Pointe
right now.
We have the dog park at Pine Tree Park right
now. We are in the midst of discussions, just had a
community meeting three weeks --well, at the end of
January, because there has been a--there was a request
for a designated off-leash area.
As an alternative, we are looking at making
the current enclosed dog park twice the size, to almost an
acre, which seems to have addressed the concerns of the
people who wanted an off-leash area, that felt that their
little, their dog park was too small. Belle Isle is very
small, and Flamingo is slightly less than an acre.
So, I mean, frankly it's a space issue,
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Page49 Page 51 ;,
because you have to take green space out for a designated 1 issues occasionally, people that don't know, or that just
dog park. 2 don't care, and put their dogs off-leash during the day
MR. HAGOPIAN: Sure. 3 when they shouldn't, or are in the wrong areas when they
.,
MS. FERNANDEZ: And the reason we don't have 4 should, would have an opportunity to put in the right
larger parks, more than an acre, is because that's been a 5 area. So we do monitor that, our code compliance staff
restraint. 6 monitors all of our parks, because this remains an issue ·~ MR. HAGOPIAN: And the Washington fenced 7 of interest to our residents, people who want to go to the
park, how big is that, the one that's down here? 8 park and enjoy it, not--you know, I have dogs as well,
MS. GRACIE: The one at 2nd Street--9 but I don't necessary want to have to worry about large
MR. HAGOPIAN: Uh-huh. 10 dogs when I'm at a park, in particular.
)"
.,.
MS. GRACIE: --and Washington Avenue is 11 So that is something we do monitor, Code,
24,000 square feet. 12 the Parks Department, and the security staff, in
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. 13 particular. South Pointe Park is unique, because we do
MS. FERNANDEZ: And Collins, across the 14 have full-time security at South Pointe Park.
street is about six. 15 So, you know, unlike other parks, where we
MS. GRACIE: Yes, about six ---16 don't have on present security guard all day, we do have
MR. HAGOPIAN: And currently you said there 17 that at South Pointe Park, on top of the park staff, and
are no other people parks that have an off-leash--18 on top of the Code compliance staff, that has to do
designated.off-leash program going on? 19 routine checks there anyway, for many other issues,
MS. FERNANDEZ: There was a request for Pine 20 including the off-leash, and pooper scooper laws and all
Tree Park to have a designated off-leash area, with 21 of that.
complaints about the size of the current enclosed fence. 22 :MR. HAGOPIAN: But I would hope the security
We went and --we were directed to have a community 23 is not had --this has nothing to do with maintaining and
workshop, which we did, and one ofthe options was, we 24 monitoring people ---
presented, because there were concerns about the nature of 25 MS. FERNANDEZ: Not the dog park. ··-~·
Page 50 Page 52
how that park functions, is a little bit different, with a 1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Yes, okay.
designated off-leash area and, .you know, with the pathways 2 MS. FERNANDEZ: General security.
and what have you. 3 MR. HAGOPIAN: I mean, dogs pooping in the
So the alternative, we proffered at the 4 park, I mean, I hope they're keeping everybody safe.
community meeting, was enlarging the current enclosed dog 5 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes.
park, and changing the way that the runs are coordinated, 6 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the hours of the park will
to create longer areas, and we believe, based on the 7 stay the same as they are in the pilot program right now.
people at the meeting, that that solution is going to be 8 There is no idea that perhaps the.hours would be extended,
the one that will be brought forward, and potentially 9 or---
approved by the Commission. So we would not designate a 10 MS. FERNANDEZ: Actually; funny you should
dog park--off-leash area there. It would remain just a 11 ask. The original hours were only until 9:00 a.m., and
larger dog park. 12 beginning at 5:00p.m.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. 13 While we were discussing the pilot project
MR. CARY: Hilda, I would expect that the 14 recently, and as we were directed to proceed with looking
City Commission and the administration is going to monitor 15 at a hedge, at the same time there was a request by the
this area very carefully, and if they find, you know, 16 dog owning community south of 5th to extend the hours.
after a year that there are serious problems with this 17 So those extended hours have actually only
being an off-leash dog area, that the City Commission 18 been in place, I believe, two months. So it used to be
would then take action to reverse its decision, or to do 19 sunrise to 9:00 a.m., and 5:00p.m. to sun--to
something else. 20 7:00p.m., and at the request of the Commission, and
MS. FERNANDEZ: That was the purpose of the 21 approved by the Commission subsequently, the hours are now
pilot, and why they didn't do the designation to begin 22 untillO:OO and beginning at 4:00.
with. So we have been reporting back to the Commission on 23 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay.
a regular basis. We have been providing the statistics. 24 MS. FERNANDEZ: I, at this point, you know,
You know, obviously we do have enforcement 25 I can't tell you whether they would be looking at extended
, ••••••. MM0> ··~···••••M.>C'••M ••·~······
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hours, but the idea was it's an off-leash designated area,
not intended to be a full-time dog park.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. I--a lot of what
Seraj said, I agree from a landscaping --I think it's
really strange to have this little hedged in area, right
at what I consider to be one of the main entries into the
park.
I mean, of course, cars park in the parking
lot, people walk in from all different areas, but this
sort oflittle paved area, that's to the east of the
apogee and--I mean, this is where people walk in, and
where you can come down, and to have it right there, this
little hedged area, to me it just seems really off, off
the mark from the planning standpoint, from the landscape
side of how this park is.
I mean, we're so diligent about, when they
were redesigning the playground area, and the canopies, I
mean, to think that we would put this, what I consider,
and again I have dogs, but with or without the hedge, it's
sort oflike an off limits area to people now that don't
have dogs.
I mean, honestly, I get it, people have to
pick up the debris left by their dog, which is only the
solid debris, the other debris stays there, and you're not
really getting it all anyway, depending on what you feed
Page 54
1 you're dog, we all know what dogs do and, I mean, will
2 people even sit there any more? I mean, I would never
3 have a picnic in that area.
4 I live on an Island that has a median, where
5 everybody on my street, every other person has a dog. I
6 don't know, you've been monitoring what's been happening
7 here for last six months, I don't know if you have any
8 stats on the percentage of residents in this area that
9 have dogs and use this park, or how many people are using
10 the park with their dogs but, you know, everybody--their
11 dog goes there, some people pick it up, some don't.
12 Here, of course, it's monitored. I'm
13 assuming some people maybe leave it and they--you know,
14 I know that there are responsible dog owners, it's not
15 your responsibility to be --to make everybody a
16 responsible dog owner, but, I mean, even knowing people
17 are picking it up, I'm not putting a blanket down there,
18 and I'm certainly--I mean, I don't have any little kids,
19 but I would --that whole part of the park to me would be
20 kind of off limits, and it just seems really weird to me.
21 I mean, I understand there is lots of dog owners, I have
22 two dogs. So, I'm all about to have a designated spot
23 where they can go and run, and go to the bathroom, but I
24 would never expect --like, ifl saw somebody picnicking
25 there, I'd be, like, hey, do you know that, you know, 50
Page 55 k
r 1 dogs a day come here and run, and I agree, the lawn is --
2 you know, will get kind of torn up.
3 I don't really understand the hedge thing.
4 My--you know, I have Terriers, you know, so they're not
5 huge dogs, but anyway, again, there is a zillion different
6 breeds of Terriers, and they love to go in hedges, and
7 through hedges, above hedges, on top of hedges, they'll
8 jump off of roofs. I mean, my dog has done all those
9 things.
10 So, I don't really --if there is not going
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to be a fence, I don't really get the hedge either. So,
I'm really not in--I don't really feel much love for
this project. I don't understand it
I applaud the residents in the area that got
together and somehow got the zoning changed to allow this.
I mean, I --wow, I mean, that's amazing, The Commission
approved a pilot program. It doesn't mean the Commission
is going to approve the final program, .and for me, I'm not
going to support this project on this Board right now.
MR. CARY: Jason, my understanding is that
the purpose of the hedge is to educate the dog owners, not
to --not to educate the dogs. The dogs are going to jump
right over a two-foot hedge, obviously, but it's for the
purpose of the City to be able to enforce, and just say to
the owners, that is the area, if it should be needed;
Page 56
1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Maybe a few signs, signs
2 would be less intrusive and just as effective, I don't
3 know, you need to go in where those hedges are.
4 I'm not wonjed about --I mean, I'm hoping
5 at least the owners will understand that this is the dog
6 area, but, I mean, a dog you can't--you know, a dog is
7 going to, like you said, it's going to do what it's going
8 to do. I mean, even some people that were in support of
9 the park, in their descriptions were saying, oh, well, you
10 know, dogs--we have two different kind of parks, because
11 this park, first, this one is the grass, I forgot the word
12 you used, but it's going to get destroyed, so they
13 switched to this one, and they can fix the sod and, I
14 mean, we don't even have that luxury here. So, this thing
15 is going to get worn, worn down, and it's kind of in the
16 first part of the park everybody sees when they come down
17 that walkway.
18 MS. FERNANDEZ: Ifl may, in all fairness,
19 those are dog parks that are used full-time for that
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I'm not suggesting that the hours that we're
suggesting, that have been approved by the Commission,
these are the hours the Commission approved, are going to
result in proportionately less damage to the grass, but at
the end of the day, you know, I want to just be clear,
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those are designated dog parks, that's all they're used 1 So, you know, knowing that the dogs are
for, the dogs are in there, presumably only in there 2 going to visit the park, and most of the dog owners that
off-leash, and tearing around, and doing whatever they do. 3 we have seen in that park are residents that are walking
This is not a full-time dog park. It's a designated area. 4 their dog, not getting out of a car. The other dog parks
It's used limit hours, and for the most part, you know, 5 we have in the city are generally driven to, a lot of them
the folks that go out there use it, because we obviously 6 are.
go out there often, they're running their dogs, and when 7 In this area they seem to be walking to the
they're done they're taking them home, because these are 8 dog parks. So, they're in the buildings, they're living
folks who live in condos, and aren't folks that have a 9 in close proximity to this area. So, it's a need that is ~
backyard where they're able to do that behind their 10 there, and if we didn't have an area designated for that ,,,
homes. 11 use, they would be spread out in a larger area, and then
MR. HAGOPIAN: Right, I understand. 12 we don't have as much control, we don't have the ability
MS. FERNANDEZ: But that would be the 13 to target enforcement, which is what we do, the park is
difference between, you know, a ·dog park and the denuding, 14 heavily enforced. So, we have staff there seven days a
which I think is the term. 15 week, 12 hours a day, we have 24-hour security there.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Denuding, that's anewword 16 So, it is the best situation that we can
forme. 17 accommodate the dogs and the patrons, because another
MS. FERNANDEZ: The denuding of the green 18 point to make, that area that we're requesting to. be
area. 19 looked at, the review, which is a combination of 1 and 2,
MR. SABA: Would you say that the grass, the 20 the coconuts do create a natural barrier for the dogs. It
lawn in the off-leash area, the current off-leash area is 21 does demarcate a dividing point.
exactly the same as other areas in the park, where, 22 The area that now houses the monument, the
like---23 new feature, the lighthouse is not appropriate any more,
MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, we have sod issues in 24 because you did have a conflict between the cut walk and
the park as a whole, as you may know. So, and f kriow what 25 one of the perimeters. So, that is something to consider,
Page 58 Page 60
we have there right now is rye grass but, John, you can 1 because that's the main cut walk that goes towards the
speak to what the ---2 McCarther, all the way back along the Marina side, and
MR. OLDENBURG: Yes, if I may; John 3 that's, that's generally well used.
Oldenburg, Parks and Recrecration Department. 4 So this has been a better situation, as far
The photo that you're looking at on the 5 as usage, and as far as the denuding on the turf, the park
screen right now, that's a current photograph, and that is 6 is irrigated, we're on an irrigation schedule. We do
the current area that's being used as the off-leash area. 7 understand that there are--you know, we do have issues
That site has been used for that con --8 with urination, but we also have the irrigation system to
that's in the same condition that it was six months ago 9 naturalize that. It is a sandy soil. So, it does not
when we started using that site. 10 stay in the soil, it will run through.
Because we've got a larger space, and just 11 MR. HAGOPIAN: The entire park is on-leash
to make a point, the dogs in South Pointe, the off-leash 12 right now. I mean, you could bring a dog anywhere
area is an answer to the existing condition that there are 13 on-leash?
dogs. I mean, the demographics have changed dramatically. 14 MR. OLDENBURG: The rest of the park is
If we build three more parks, they're going 15 on-leash.
to be filed with dogs. It's not a question of, you know, 16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Through the entire park?
whether we need this area or not. It's a question of, 17 MS. FERNANDEZ: Any time of day you can
it's addressing a need. It does demarcate an area where 18 bring your dog to that park on a leash and they can poop
people can run their dogs, and it does lessen the dogs 19 and not get picked up.
that are in the rest of the park. 20 MR. HAGOPIAN: And then a block north, you
;
Historically the eastern part of the park, 21 have a complete area where a dog could go ---
which is east of the restaurant, where the playground is, 22 MS. FERNANDEZ: Unleashed.
and has the Pavilion building, is the greater used area 23 MR. HAGOPIAN: --unleashed.
for the patrons, for the picnicking and the sitting and 24 MS. FERNANDEZ: Correct, 24/7.
the area there, also the exercise goes on there, too. 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: So we're not providing enough
,.~.
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1 for dog owners right now? 1 But ultimately all of this discussion, you
2 MR. OLDENBURG: Well, in Washington, 2 know, a lot of comments, and concerns, and support, and
3 Washington Dog Park, Flamingo Dog Park, you're averaging
4 60, 70 dogs in there. I mean, there are a large --there
3 opposed, you know, those folks came to the Commission, and
4 we hope they come to the Commission again to discuss
5 is a large population of dogs in Miami Beach right now.
6 The owners, the demographics have changed. The owners are
7 younger, they've got --they've got the dogs, and really
5 whatever the result of your recommendation is when we move
6 forward with the project.
7 MR. CARY: So, Hilda, to help the Board in
8 we're just addressing the need that's there. It's not
9 going to go away. In fact, it's going to get larger. So,
8 making its decision, if the majority of the members of the
9 Board feel very strongly that there should not be an
10 we're trying to accommodate as many people as. we can, as
11 everybody is a patron of the park. So that's ---
12 MS. FERNANDEZ: And, again, I just want to
I 0 off-leash dog area in South Pointe Park, they can say--
11 they can make a motion that said, if it is decided by the
12 City Commission to approve an off-leash dog program in
13 re-emphasize, this issue was discussed at Committee and
14 Commission, we had folks on all sides of the issue come to
15 the publicly noticed meetings, express their opinion as to
16 why we needed this, or did not need this.
13 South Pointe Park, we would recommend, you know, Area X. ;;
14 However, the Design Review Board, for a
15 variety of reasons, is strongly opposed to an off-leash
dog area at South Pointe Park, is that the type of---16.
17 The Commission's decision at the time was to 17 MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I will tell you,
18 proceed until June, they extended the pilot until June, to
19 give enough time for this to go through the DRB process,
20 because when they decided to proceed, they said we'd like
21 to look at the hedge option, and at which point we said,
22 well,. that would require Design Review Board, because
23 you're creating now a physical barrier, blah, blah, which
24 is why it's here, but the only reason it wasn't approved
18 , William, I'm not your attorney, so I can't give you
19 guidance, but the designation of an off-leash area, with
20 no physical anything, I don't know would have even --
21 would not have even come to the DRB, that's been in place.
22 MR. CARY: Well, it's the hedge---
23 MS. FERNANDEZ: So what the issue is,
24 really ---
25 last time is that they decided they wanted to look at the 25 MR. CARY: It's the hedge that raises it to
Page 62
1 hedge as an option, and decided to defer the final 1
2 conclusion until they could include within the ordinance 2
3 the final location, but at the end of the day, there was 3
4 much discussion on exactly that issue from other folks who 4
5 said, hey, no hedge, no nothing, we already have it here. 5
6 I mean, that was --there was a lot of 6
7 really good, diversity of opinion that was presented to 7
8 the Commission, and at the end of the day the Commission's 8
9 determination was to proceed with the pilot, to allow this 9
10 to go through the DRB process for a recommendation from 10
11 you as to, you know, potentially what you thought was the 11
12 best location in light of the aesthetic issues and, you 12
13 know, a hedge --what your consideration was for a hedge 13
14 based on those locations, and we would take your 14
15 recommendation back to them, and then they will have to 15
16 make a fmal decision and, again, publicly noticed, 16
17 members of the community will come out. We hope, 17
18 obviously, the resident who spoke earlier will come out 18
19 and give her opinion, but in June we are scheduled to go 19
20 back, because this is when the current pilot project 20
21 expires. So our desire is to go back in May for first 21
22 reading. In the event it gets approved at first reading, 22
23 so it would be approved at the latest for the second 23
24 reading in June, when the current pilot project expires, 24
25 if that is the desire of the Commission. 25
Page 64
theDRB.
MS. FERNANDEZ: Right, the final location is
important, and they wanted to get the input of the DRB,
especially as it relates to the potential inclusion of a
hedge but, you know, obviously we've designated an
off-leash area for the last, over a year, based on the
direction of the Commission, and they had one location,
moved it to another location, but now as we're going to
the phase where they're actually considering a permanent
location, and this concept of a hedge came up, we really
do --you know, we really --obviously it needs to come to
this board if there is going to be a hedge, because that
has a--it changes the landscape, so to speak, of what's
happening in that park.
You know, certainly you all can give any
recommendation, you know, certainly, but, you know,
ultimately, you know, they're going to consider--what
they really wanted to get a recommendation from, was if
there was going to be a hedge, which of these areas would
make the best sense in terms of in this park.
MR. CARY: Would it be appropriate if the
board was to approve one area, to request the City put on
that sign that says off-leash dog area, also something
that says this area may not be used for picnics, or
something of that nature?
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1 Because I think it's a very real concern 1
2 that everybody --I mean, it's common sense, I mean, you 2
3 don't want to sit down in an area in a picnic with your 3
Page 67
MR. CARY: I think it's well within your
purview to make a recommendation relative to safety.
4 kids where dogs have been for the last, you know, several 4
5 hours, so --but it's just ---5
MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of the day, we
either approve or we do not approve an application. I
mean, if we approve it ---I.'
6 MS. FERNANDEZ: You know, our concern would 6
7 be, this is a public open space. The reason why it's not 7
MR. CARY: Well, the application requests r
that you approve a location ifthe City Commission makes ~
determination that it's correct to have an off-leash dog 8 a designated dog park is precisely because it was intended 8
9 to be some minimal use during the day off-leash. 9 area here.
1 0 That area of the park can be used by anybody 1 0 MR. HAGOPIAN: And what if you don't like
any of the locations? 11 with a dog on a leash, like any other part of the park can 11
12 be used by anybody with a dog on a leash. Someone can go 12 MR. CARY: Maybe the City Attorney's Office
13 with a dog on a leash, where the Art in Public Places 13 would like to provide further guidance. I'm getting --
MR. SABA: Could we ask that there ---14 piece is at, and have that dog poo and pee all over the 14
15 place, and it's on leash, it would be as detrimental there 15 MR. CARY: --above my pay rate right now.
MR. SABA: Could we ask that alternate 16 as anyplace else in the park, but they could do that as . 16
1 7 long as the dog is on a leash. 17 locations be proposed? Because really those three
locations, I think, are ---18 So really, we're talking about the 18
19 distinction of a designated off-leash area, where, from a 19 MR. CARY: But is there an alternate
location within South Pointe Park that you would ---20 design perspective, in the park you believe is should be, 20
21 especially if it's going to have a recommended hedge 21 MS. FERNANDEZ: No, this would be the three
alternate locations. We've tried to separate it from the
children's playground area, which is not a fenced in
children's area at this point. The other side of the hill
22 around --a hedge around it, as has been suggested by some 22
23 members of the Commission. 23 ·
24 They decided to proceed, because there was a 24
25 recommendation by one Commissioner, in particular, about 25 · is a dune area, which we wouldn't recommend.
Page 66
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the placement of a hedge, as a condition of approving the
project moving forward, and the full Commission said at
that point, well, then let's get the recommendation of the
DRB before we make a final determination.
5 It certainly isn't inappropriate to say
6 Option 1 with a hedge, Option 2, yes, I guess a hedge, but
7 we would recommend no hedge because there is already
8 natural boundaries, which is consistent with what the
9 Staff wrote, I think, in their report to you.
10 MR. CARY: And, again, I would go back to my
11 earlier guidance to the Board, is that whether there is
12 going to be a dog --off-leash dog area here or not is a
13 City Commission policy decision, and that the Design
14 Review Board should really limit its decision to the
15 design issues associated with an off-leash dog area.
16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Design and safety. It's
17 about safety. That's what--that's in our, you know, our
18 description --
19 MR. CARY: It is.
20 MR. HAGOPIAN: --of what we do.
21 MR. CARY: It is in your evaluation.
22 MR. HAGOPIAN: Appearance, aesthetics safety
23 and function.
24 MR. CARY: It's public safety, yes.
25 MR. HAGOPIAN: So ---
Page 68
1 So really, in terms of public spaces, you
2 have the two lawns, the east lawn and the west lawn, and
, 3 you have the area where the public art piece is, and a
4 sliver ofland that's between the walkway, where the
5 public art piece is, and apogee.
6 We recommended that space, but that space,
7 because of the landscape, ends up being even much smaller
8 than 18,000 square feet. So, that was already shut down
9 as a potential alternative, and that's what I'm referring
10 to, is this area, this is the public art piece area. We
11 attempted to do this area here. It's had additional
12 plantings in the area, and as a result the square footage
13 that was available was deemed too small, and was not
14 considered as an alternative, not even as a temporary
15 alternative when we were doing the construction here,
16 which is why we ended up moving it to a portion ofthe
17 west lawn, but when we've looked at all the other spaces,
18 I mean, this is planting and dunes, and elevated berms,
19 you know, this is the dune area, this is the children's
20 playground area, this area gets heavy use from children
21 playing and picnicking and what have you, people--
22 because the restrooms are on this side of the park for
23 now. We may eventually have other restrooms on this side.
24 So, you know, we did look at other
25 alternatives. Unfortunately we could not find any
II
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alternative that provided some reasonable level of space,
based on what the expectations were from the dog owners in
the area, where they wanted something at least comparable
to that space, and that one, having very little
landscaping, because it's a water's edge, was open green
space, and was, you know, very well used, and very--you
know, people liked it, while it was available, but think
everybody else conceded that, you know, this works for
them because they have this physical barrier with the
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1 0 elevated cut walk. 10
11 You know, the issue now is whether just to 11
12 do the half, or go all the way to the walkway, which are 12
13 Options 1 and 2, that are being presented. 13
14 MR. HAGOPIAN: Gary. 14
15 MR. HELD: So, just to clarify a few 15
16 jurisdictional questions that may have arisen. So first 16
17 and foremost, appeals from the Design and Review Board go 17
18 to the City Commission. So, the City Commission would 18
19 ultimately have final say over any issue that's presented 19
20 to you. 20
21 Also, there are no structures that are being 21
22 presented to you for approval. We're really just talking 22
23 about a landscape and wall, whatever you want to call it, 23
24 landscape, strip, hedge, and I don't know that your 24
25 decision is really dispositive on that issue, particularly 25
Page70
Page 71 ':.
just Area 1, because I really feel strongly that the park
should not be just kind of reserved for, you lmow, one
kind of use, but it really doesn't make sense.
If you're opposed to the hedge overall,
which I think most us are because of the idea of the
master plan, and how you want it open, then Area 1 by
itself would necessitate a hedge of some sort. So it
doesn't make sense.
So really what's on our recommendation, or
our consideration, is really Area 1 and 2 together, hedge
or no hedge, you lmow, because I think all of us are in
agreement that we don't want Area 3 as a consideration. >
MS. FERNANDEZ: And I think we also
considered the fact that, you lmow, Option 1 represents
literally creating a hedge in the middle of an open green
space right now, which is a little odd from a design
perspective, you lmow, because while there is a natural
boundary at the walkway, there isn't one in the middle,
that's just, we picked a location that more er less gave '
them sufficient square footage, and that's where we kind ~~
of demarcated a hedge. So it breaks out the, you lmow, ~~
the free and open lawn that's there right now, where-you :~
have an open vista. -it
You lmow, if the decision is to put a hedge,
ultimately, which the Commission needs to --you lmow, ~
1!:
Page 72 ~
1 given the nature of the appeal process. 1 that was what they couldn't decide on, but if the decision
2 So really you're making a recommendation to 2 is to do a hedge, you know, clearly it's going to at least ~
3 the City Commission. They have the right to overrule you 3 be contiguous with the current walkways. So, that might '1
4 if an appeal were to be "filed. 4 present less of a physical, wow, you know, there is a
5 So, you lmow, look at the application, give 5 hedge in the middle of a park in a green space.
6 it your best decision. You lmow, whatever the majority 6 So, you know, that's why that option is
7 decides, the administration will review it, and then they 7 there and, again, the Staff offers the, you know, the
8 need to take it to the City Commission anyway, whether 8 option of, you know, presenting it, okay, if you're going
9 they take it as an original matter in their proprietary 9 to do a hedge, maybe here, but we prefer no hedge, you
10 capacity, or as an appeal, the City Commission will make 10 know, all together, as an alternative, I think, that they
11 the final decision. 11 put in the memo to you, but that's kind of where we're at
12 MR. CARY: That kind of makes it a lot 12 with that, and we've talked about additional openings as 1
13 easier, doesn't it? 13 well, again, to make sure people understand that this is ~
14 MR. HAGOPIAN: It only sounds a lot easier 14 intended to be a free and open use, it's not a dog park. ~
15 but--Lilia, did you have something? 15 So, we're looking at, you know, whether we have additional'
16 MS. MEDINA: Just another question. 16 openings to make it clear that this is an area that people ~
17 Hilda, on Area 1, which is existing pilot 17 are free and easy--you know, willing to--or able to '
18 program area, in the --in our drawings we have a 18 access during the day, whenever they want. i
19 suggested hedge between Area 1 and Area 2. 19 MR. CARY: I would make one --like to make
20 So, if one were to go only for Area 1, the 20
21 existing area that's being used now, you had mentioned 21
22 earlier that, you lmow, people use the whole area anyway, 22
23 and that you had a sign in the middle saying, this is the, 23
24 you know, dedicated area, but people just don't really --24
25 so, in my mind, I had said earlier that I would go with 25
one quick suggestion. If it's the majority of members
that feel strongly against having an off-leash area in
South Pointe Park, I would not want to see the Design
Review Board forfeit its opportunity to make a
recommendation as to which of the three areas that are
being considered would be the preferred location should a
18 (Pages 69 to 72)
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Page 73
1 dog, off-leash dog area be determined to be appropriate by
2 the City Commission. I think you at least want to have
3 that recommendation into the City Commission.
4 Because it sounds to me like we're going to
Page75
1 all urination ofthe dogs, that the grass is going to
2 suffer, and there is going to be a real difference between
3 seeing other areas of grass and here, but I look at this
4 picture, and this looks like it was just recently planted. i:
5 end up having an off-leash dog area in South Pointe Park,
6 and I just don't want you to forfeit your opportunity, and
7 then we fmd that we have an off-leash dog area around the
8 lighthouse, you know, which I think would be the worst.
5 Do you guys do something --I mean, do
6 people use this area now, besides as the dog area, to come 1~
7 and do picnics, does anybody complain ofthe smell, does
9 MR. HAGOPIAN: So, hypothetically, if we
10 select Area 2, which is the big piece, and we decide --
11 and we want the hedge, but we want the hedge to kind of
12 meander through the trees, blah, blah, blah, and then you
13 don't get four votes, what happens?
14 MR. CARY: The motion fails. I mean---
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: And then what happens?
16 MR. CARY: Well---
8 anybody complain that they're sitting on a foul area?
9 · I mean, is that something that really is --
10 I mean, are you guys doing something special to keep this
11 at this level, or is it --this is the way it's always
12 going to be?
13 MR. OLDENBURG: Actually that park is
14 maintained --the entire park is maintained at the same
15 standard. So, one issue, we have not had complaints of .
16 residents, or patrons of the park, you know, wanting to
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MR. HAGOPIAN: You still need to have a 17 visit that area and, of an odor, or any other negative I?
majority, right? I mean, you still have to have four. 18 complaint, except for some people. that do not want the mix 11
MR. HELD: That matter--that would be your 19 of the dogs with the people. ~;
decision. Your decision would probably be appealed to the 20 I mean, there are people that don't want any lr
City Commission, because the application would still need 21 dogs---I!
to be approved before the work could commence, and the 22 MR. MINAGORRI: Right, but when you are on
City Commission would make the fmal decision, but 23 the off times, between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00p.m., do people
whatever your decision is, it would be reported, along 24 other than --that do not have dogs, do they actually go
with the appeal. 25 to this area·and actually sit there, is there any
1 Anyway, that's the way I see it. I don't
2 know what Staff is contemplating, but --so your
3 sentiments on this will be presented to the City
4 Commission in any event, because it is going to be
Page 74
5 presented at some point, and the only question is, in what
6 form does it take, does it take the form of a decision by
7 this board, or an appeal, or something else.
8 So, feel free to decide whatever you think
9 appropriate, given your best judgment.
10 MR. MINAGORRI: You mentioned that the photo
11 that was taken here is already after the park has been in
12 use as an unleashed park for--after six months.
13 MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the photo that I have
14 on the screen right now, that's basically since--that
15 usage since November.
16 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay.
17 MR. OLDENBURG: We're in --right now we're
18 in March.
19 MR. MINAGORRI: So ---
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MS. GRACIE: I physically took that
photo---
MR. OLDENBURG: This photo was recent. This
is just a week ago.
MR. MINAGORRI: So, in your opinion, because
I think Seraj made a point, that with all the feces, and
Page 76
1 complaints at that time that this is not a safe place to
2 be in? I~
3 MR. OLDENBURG: No, we have not received 1:;
4 that. I mean, people do sit underneath the trees,
5 especially along, adjacent to Washington Avenue, they sit
6 there, you know, around noon time, when there is shade,
7 but the primary users of the park are using the eastern
8 section of the park, east of the restaurant, that's the
9 majority usage, and then the cut walk. So, there is usage
1 0 on the west side.
11 MR. MINAGORRI: So what is the usage of this
12 area, other than the dog area? When the dogs are not
13 there, what happens in this 1 and 2 parcels?
14 MR. OLDENBURG: Compared to the rest of the
15 park, it's very little used, as far as patrons.
16 It may be transversed, but that sidewalk
17 that's in your photo, is a major corridor where people
18 walk through to the cut walk, but most of the people that
19 enter to the park are already on the cut walk when they
20 enter the park, they're coming along from the bayside,
21 along the marina side, and they're also coming in from the
22 north.
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So, there is a lot of cut walk users, and a
lot of the park --parking --because of the parking
situation in that park, there is not a lot of traffic that
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Page77
people are driving to that park just to go to the park,
they're going to the restaurant, and while they're at the
restaurant, they're using the rest of the park, or they're
driving to the park to use the playground and the water
features, or they access the beach, but as far as patrons
that are driving to that park, they're primarily coming
from the local buildings that are adjacent to the park,
and they're walking from the cut walk, they're walking
from Washington, but primarily from the cut walk area.
MS. FERNANDEZ: That is an excellent
question. Again, the current and only restaurants in the
park are adjacent to the east lawn, right next to the only
concession in the park, Blissberry Yogurt, right next to
the children's play area, right next to the splash ground.
In the future, depending on what happens
with the Washington Avenue entrance, if there is a
decision made, as we proceed with dealing with the
fountains, it may require the building of restrooms on the
other side of the Washington A venue entrance.
At that point you might see more activity on
that side of the park, but naturally speaking, the folks
and the families that use it are using the areas adjacent
to the tot lot, near the bathroom, next to the splash
ground, and that is on the east lawn primarily. I'm not
saying there's never activity there, but the majority of
Page78
the activity, family-wise or whatever, you tend to see
closer to the restroom and splash ground and concession,
which is the other side, the other lawn.
MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I just had a brief
conversation with the Park's director, Kevin Smith. The
Board could make two separate motions. It could make one
motion opposing an off-leash dog area in South Pointe
Park, and it could make a second motion recommending that
if an off-leash dog area is found to be appropriate by the
City Commission, that the board would recommend Area, you
know, X, Y or Z.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Well, maybe just--we
can maybe do a straw poll for the motion of which part of
those three properties we feel would be best if you had to
pick one of the three.
MR. SABA: And if there should be a hedge or
no hedge.
MR. CARY: And then there is the hedge
issue, yes.
MR. MINAGORRI: That could be divided into
two different motions, one selecting the area, and the
other one is selecting where the hedges are.
MR. CARY: One motion would be how the Board
feels about having an off-leash dog area in South Pointe
Park, period. The next motion would be, if it's
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Page 79
detennined by the City Commission to have an off-leash dog
program in South Pointe Park, which area the board would
recommend, and what your position would be relative to it
be optional, at the Parks Department's discretion, whether
a hedge should be introduced, or whether you want to
require a hedge, or whether you want to require no hedge.
MR. HAGOPIAN: So that would be part of one
motion.
MS. HOUSEN: I have one more question,
before we get to that.
Is there a reason Area 1 and 2 cannot be
separated? Because one side of it is 18,000 feet, and one
side of it is 14,000 feet. So, in total it's just under
one acre. Could it not just be 1 or 2? Why do they have
to be com--it's, like, we have a choice of3, or 1 and
2.
MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the useable space that
you actually have in Site 1 would be inside that tree
line, and there is, because of the. extended tree
plantings, the usable space is quite less than 18,000
square feet, and the combined area of usable space is very
close to the 18,000.
MS. HOUSEN: So it needs to be c:ombined?
MR. OLDENBURG: Yes.
MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I mean, obviously
Page 80
that's a decision the Commission will make. They wanted
us to look at all of the options.
Just to be clear, the original
recommendation that was submitted by Staff, the Staff
administrative recommendation, did not include a hedge.
The hedge option was discussed as part of the presentation
of the item by the Commission. It was introduced as an
option for consideration of approval.
But the original request was just leaving
this as an off-leash area, without a hedge, which is how
it's been functioning for the last year, but this --
because of this additional request, as a result of the
Commission discussion, and that's why we've submitted the
DRB application but, you know, to Ms. Housen's point, yes,
the concern that's been raised--that has arisen now is
that the area we had designated--and by the way, when we
went to the Commission and showed them the maps, and we
said this is the area, because of the safety issues that
resulted in us not being able to put signs in the middle
of the open field, they had assumed that this open space,
all the way to the walkway, was the approved off-leash
area, and when we said, no, no, that wasn't what was the
pilot, temporary area, they came to the C:::ommission and
said, then we have a concern, the useable space is now
much smaller because of new plantings, we want you to
;
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(i
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Page 81 Page 83 "
1 consider going all the way to Washington --to this 1 It's--
2 walkway. 2 MR. SABA: Which is why there shouldn't
3 So, we were directed to present all three 3 be--
,,
4 options to you, the original space that we thought was, 4 MR. CARY: --a serious concern.
5 everybody understood was the off-leash area, the pilot 5 MR. SABA: --a dog park at this park.
6 area, all the Washington A venue and, of course, the 6 MR. CARY: Well, again, you can make two
"' 7 original location, where we had placed it before the 7 separate motions, but ---
8 construction of the lighthouse. 8 MR. LAVA: I'm Dennis Lava, Art in Public
·9 But, you know, again, the project moved 9 Places.
10 forward. It's just a designated off-leash area. The 10 Number one, a world class artist would have
11 concept of a hedge was something that was introduced as we 11 never even submitted a Public Art Sculpture for a dog
12 were discussing the pilot, and whether the pilot should or 12 park.
13 shouldn't continue. 13 MR. SABA: Look, sir, please, I'm not
14 MR. CARY: Okay. Okay. 14 advocating for the dog park to be at --
15 MR. HAGOPIAN: So as far as for straw poll 15 MR. LAVA: Correct.
16 purposes, we're looking at Area 1, which is the small 16 MR. SABA: "~that location. We're being
17 part, or Area 2, which is the small part, plus the part 17 forced to make a decision here of one of three locations.
18 next to the small part. 18 Our hands --I'm saying none of the locations, .zero, none,
19 Is there --well, we're not looking at 3, I 19 not one.
20 guess, because we don't want it near the public art, or is 20 MR. LAVA: And I would also like to point
21 that an option that you think is better? 21 out, when the artist designed that, if you notice the
22 MR. SABA: I mean, if it had to be there, I 22 bottom puck of the sculpture, that's intended to be an
23 would --if it had to be somewhere --23 area for people to sit and view the sunset, and I know
24 MR. HAGOPIAN: You would pick 3? 24 everybody beats around the bush here, but nobody is going
25 MR. SABA: --I would pick 3. 25 to be sitting in that, dog owner or not, when you're
Page 82 Page 84
1 MS. MEDINA: Because it's away from the 1 sitting on feces and urine, because that's all cement.
2 center. 2 So, you're basically taking away one of the intents of the
3 MR. SABA: It's away, it's off to the side, 3 work of art, and that was the area selected.
4 it doesn't divide that large grassy area, and it doesn't 4 Nobody is going to be sitting there to be
5 take that whole area away from people that want to, you 5 sitting in dog feces and urine, and that's not going to go
6 know, use it. I mean, that's a large area. You can --6 away, because it's stuck on cement.
7 you know, if you wanted to, you know, for football, or 7 MR. SABA: Which is why we shouldn't have
8 baseball, or something, if somebody else wanted to play 8 this in this park at all. I mean that makes my point.
9 there, and you put a hedge down the middle of it, that 9 But understand, we're being asked to make a
10 really ruins it, and then if you have a bunch of dogs 10 decision --we're being given three alternatives, none of
11 running around there, when somebody wants to use it, you 11 which are suitable, but we're having to chose one of them.
12 know, even if it's just for a few hours of the day, 12 MR. LAVA: Well, I was just explaining the
13 they're not going to go there because there is going to be 13 intent of that lower seating, which is for people to sit
14 a lot of dogs there. So, you're excluding other users, at 14 and view it, not to sit in feces, which will probably
15 least during that time. 15 happen if you do do the dog park there, and it's also less
16 MR. CARY: My concern, board members, is 16 space.
17 that the Design Review Board, you know, had held two 17 MR. HAGOPIAN: Carol, which location do you
18 public hearings relative to what the correct location is 18 support?
19 for the Art in Public Places piece, and you made that 19 MS. HOUSEN: I don't support any location,
20 decision in light of the fact that there was never 20 or shrubs. If that's the straw poll, I'd be willing to --
21 contemplated to be a dog park, an off-leash dog area 21 MR. HAGOPIAN: But if you had to?
22 there, and it would really be contradictory to identifying 22 MS. HOUSEN: --put it in a motion.
23 a location for a half a million dollar piece of public 23 MR. HAGOPIAN: Mickey?
24 art, and then create an off-leash dog area around it that 24 MR. MINAGORRI: I would support the Area 1
25 would limit public access to a piece of public art. 25 and2.
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Page 85
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MR. HAGOPIAN: So the big space?
MR MINAGORRI: The big space, yes.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Lilia?
1 MS. HOUSEN: That's my first motion.
Page 87 •
I"
2 MR. CARY: Saying that there be no off-leash 1,
3 dog area in South Pointe?
MS. :MEDINA: Yes, I would support Area 1 and 4 MS. HOUSEN: No, the ftrst motion is no
2 combined, without a hedge, if we're going to go with an 5 hedge, against the hedge, the hedge that's been proposed.
off-leash area, and I would also support not having an 6 MR. CARY: If there is an off-leash dog area
7 off-leash area at all. 7 in South Pointe Park, that there be no hedge, is that what 11
8 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the two motion concepts? 8 you're saying? r;
9 So, she would support using the large area, 9 MS. HOUSEN: The ftrst --okay. Let me, let
10 which is actually called Area 2, with no hedges, as one 10 me revoke what I just said. The first motion should be
11 motion, and then she would also make another motion that 11 that we don't have an off-leash dog park.
12 would say that she does not--that she's does not 12 MR. CARY: In South Pointe Park.
13 support--13 MS. HOUSEN: In South Pointe Park, and can I
14 MS. :MEDINA: An off-leash area at all. 14 not make it inclusive, that we do not---
15 MR HAGOPIAN: --any off-leash area in the 15 MR. CARY: But I would recommend that you
16 entire South Pointe Park. 16 make just a completely separate motion.
17 MS. :MEDINA: And I certainly don't want to 17 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. That's my motion, that
18 have any consideration for Area Number 3. I think that 18 we do not support the off-leash dog park.
19 area, as you may recall when we voted on this, those 19 MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second.
20 members, when the Board who were on here, there was a 20 MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor.
21 concern for it to be a pusua (phonetic), and it was 21 UNIDENTIFIED: I.
22 mentioned in our discussion, and I really feel that a 22 MS. HOUSEN: I.
23 world class piece of art, public art space is not 23 UNIDENTIFIED: I.
24 conducive to having dogs going around them. 24 UNIDENTIFIED: Nay.
25 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well; and I think for me it's 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: So it passes.
Page 86
1 important that we send a strong message to the Commission, 1
2 at least, which is why I support the two motions, I don't 2
3 think it should go anywhere here either, but if we can!t 3
4 just make a motion that we don't want the park here, and 4
5 we have to make a second motion to pick a spot to put the 5
6 park, or put the dog leash area, I guess that's what we 6
7 h~~~ 7
8 MS. HOUSEN: Jason, can I make a motion that 8
9 we vote against any, the shrubby plan that's been 9
10 proposed, to not use it, and the second part of that 1 0
11 motion, that we do not choose a location for off-leash 11
12 dogs, could that be part of the motion? 12
13 MR. CARY: Would you make that two separate 13
14 motions, though? I think you want to make one motion 14
15 that's very strong. 15
16 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. Let me repeat that. 16
17 MR. CARY: If everybody is opposed to 17
18 putting in an off-leash dog area, I think you want to have 18
19 a strong motion to reflect that specifically. 19
20 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. The first motion is DRB 20
21 File 22894, and the first motion is to not support the 21
22 install --installation of any hedge, excuse me, 22
23 delineating any area. I think it would really harm the 23
24 park. That's my first motion. 24
25 MR. CARY: Is that motion ---25
motion.
Page 88
MR. HELD: So, four to one in favor of the
Okay. Any ---
MS. HOUSEN: The Commission can undo it if
they choose, and just, that's our recommendation. That's
the ftrst one.
And the second one is that, to not delineate
any areas with the hedging that's been proposed, any area.
MR. HELD: So if there is a dog --an
off-leash dog area, that there is no hedges.
MS. HOUSEN: That there be no hedges.
MR. CARY: Do you--does the board have a
preference relative to which of the three areas?
MS. HOUSEN: No, I don't support any of the
areas. It's up to the board---
MR. HELD: That would be a separate motion
as well.
MR. CARY: Again, I just don't want for the
board to forfeit its opportunity to make a recommendation
of---
MR. HELD: Was there a second to---
MS. HOUSEN: But the dogs can still be in
the park. They just can't be off-leash, right, they still
have the full park. We're not saying no dogs, just no
off-leash.
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MR. HELD: Okay. See if there is a second
to this motion.
MR. SABA: I'll second it.
MR. HELD: Okay. Seraj, second.
MR. CARY: Could you repeat the motion
again, please? I'm still a little bit ---
MR. HELD: This is if there is a dog --an
off-leash area in the park, there should be no hedges,
correct?
you.
zero.
MS. HOUSEN: Yes, that's correct. Thank
MR. HELD: You're welcome.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Seraj seconded it.
MR. CARY: Yes.
MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor?
GROUP: I.
MR. HELD: So it was unanimous, five to
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MR. HELD: Any recommendation on if there is 20
an off-leash area, where it should go? 21
MS, MEDINA: Yes, I would like to make a 22
motion to recommend Area Number 2, which is the total of 23
34,000 square feet and, again, you know we've already 24
voted on no hedges, so ---25
Page90
the great decision to put the park here in the first
place. I mean, at this point you're telling us we don't
have much effect here. I mean, it looks to me like this
is going to happen, unless the Commission values what this
Board has said, and ---
MR. CARY: Right, but if you have only three
choices for dinner, and you have to eat, I would rather,
at least, have a chance to choose which ofthose three I
don't like, rather than ending up with something that I --
is going to make me sick.
MS. HOUSEN: But, Mr. Cary, with due
respect, this is still in a pilot program, and I think
it's very important that the Commission hears what we feel
about it, because it's still a pilot. It's not approved,
is that correct?
MR. CARY: That's correct.
MS. HOUSEN: Right, it's a pilot program,
and I think it's important.
MR. CARY: Okay, but all I'm saying is that
there should be no complaints from anyone that voted in
opposition to selecting an area if we find that we have an
off-leash dog area around the lighthouse, you have
forfeited your opportunity to ---
MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, does anybody want to
make a motion to exclude the lighthouse location? Because
Page92
1 MR. HELD: So, if there is an off-leash area 1 we can do that?
2 in South Pointe Park, it should go in Area ---2 MS. MEDINA: Sure, I'm make that motion.
3 MS. MEDINA: Number 2. 3 MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that.
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MR. MOONEY: Lilia, is that 1 ---4 MS. MEDINA: The motion is to remove. Option
MR. HELD: Which includes Number 1?
MR. MOONEY: Right.
5 or Area Number 3 from any consideration for an off-leash
6 area at the park.
MR. HELD: Okay. 7 MR. HAGOPIAN: We have a second from Mickey.
MS. MEDINA: A combined area, total of
34,000 square feet.
8 All those in favor?
9 GROUP: I.
MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that.
MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor?
GROUP: I.
10
11
12
13
MR. CARY: Seraj?
MR. SABA: Can I sustain from voting?
MR. HELD: No, there no abstaining, sorry.
MR. HAGOPIAN: That's okay, we got urn, you
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
MS. HOUSEN: Nay.
UNIDENTIFIED: Nay.
MR. HAGOPIAN: I.
14 can say nay.
15
MR. HELD: So it's 3 to 2. 16
17 MS. MEDINA: It passes. 17
18 MR. HELD: Well, four votes, but that's the 18
19 recommendation to the City Commission. 19
20 MR. CARY: So you are forfeiting your 20
21 opportunity to give advice to the City Commission relative 21
22 to what --which of the three areas ---22
23 MR. HELD: No, they just did. William, they 23
24 just did. You report a three to two vote on Area 2. 24
25 MR. HAGOPIAN: The Commission already made 25
MR. SABA: Nay.
MR. HELD: Okay. So, it's four to one.
MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay?
MR. HELD: Thank you.
MR. HAGOPIAN: All right. Thank you.
Thanks for your time.
MS. MEDINA: Thank you very much.
MR. CARY: Thank you, folks. I'm sorry that
was so painful. I knew that it would be, and I didn't
think it was going to be a 15 minute hearing.
MR. HAGOPIAN: This is our last one, right?
I~
23 (Pages 89 to 92)
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Page93
MR. CARY: I mean, there is such compelling
arguments on both sides. It's very difficult. Thank you
for bearing with us.
(Thereupon, the Meeting was concluded.)
Page94
CERTIFICATION
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF MIAMI-DADE
I, Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR, Shorthand
Reporter and Notary. Public in and for the State of Florida
at Large, do hereby certify that the foregoing Meeting was
transcribed by me from a CD from a recording made on the
date and at the place as stated in the caption hereto on
page 1; that the foregoing computer-aided transcription is
a true record to the best of my ability of said
proceedings.
WITNESS my hand this 28th day of March, 2012
CHERYL L. JENKINS, RPR
Court Reporter and Notary Public
in and for the State of Florida at Large
Commission #DD 920461
December 27,2013
""·'Ooo$oM.
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(305) 358-8875
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