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DRB 22894 South Pointe Park Transcripts1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CITY OF MIAMI BEACH DESIGN REVIEW BOARD City of Miami Beach City Hall 3rd Floor, City Commission Chambers 1700 Convention Center Drive Miami Beach, Florida 33139 March 6, 2012 9:44 a.m. to 11:33 a.m. Item No. 22894 - South Pointe Park Transcribed from a CD By: Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR Pagel OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES: JASON HAGOPIAN, CHAIRMAN LILIA MEDINA CAROL HOUSEN SERAJ SABA MICKEY MINAGORRI JOHN OLDENBURG City of Miami Beach Assistant Director of Parks & Recreation RHONDA GRACIE City of Miami Beach Landscape Architect HILDA FERNANDEZ City of Miami Beach Assistant City Manager KEVIN SMITH Director of Parks & Recreation WILLIAM CARY CMB Assistant Director of Planning Department THOMAS MOONEY CMB Preservation and Design Manager DENNIS LAVA Staff to Art in Public Places ALSO PRESENT Jean Culick Larry Weiman Page 2 OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 MR. MOONEY: The next item is DRB File Number 22894. This is 1 Washington Avenue, South Pointe Park, and the City of Miami Beach is requesting design review approval for an off -leash dog area within the western portion of South Pointe Park. At the direction of the Commission, two options are being presented to the Design Review Board for the creation of an off -leash dog area. We have members of the Public Works Department Stuff who will make the presentation and better explain it. Staff has recommended that Area 3, which would be the area proposed to be around the Art in Public Lighthouse sculpture not be permitted, and instead Areas 1 and 2 be the areas that are approved for the dog leash area, and that if a hedge is required, that the hedge be maintained at a height not to exceed 24 inches. MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, just for the benefit of our new member, the design for South Pointe Park is probably one of the most unique, you know, oceanfront park designs perhaps in the world. On its east end, the park meets the transition from an ocean marine environment, from a natural environment into an urban environment. The master plan for the park was very carefully designed by George Hargreaves Associates, one of OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 the most, kind of outstanding, you know, landscape designers in the United States, done many major parks throughout the states, and in recognition of the fact that Miami Beach is a city which doesn't have many hills, and doesn't have any high points, he created this whole concept of a serpentine dune, to become an elevated walkway, to help make the transition from the natural environment of the ocean and marine environment, into the urban environment So, on the east side you have the ocean. On the south side you have the incredible, you know, Government Cut, with, you know 120, 150 -foot, you know, high cruise ships, you know, floating by. So people are only not looking at the park from street level, they're looking at it from above, they're looking down upon it. So, the whole design of the park was done in a very kind of comprehensive manner, to provide people the ability to go up to 14 -feet in height above the park and see vistas changing as you meander along the serpentine trail. At one point you're looking out to the north, when you first enter onto the beach, onto the serpentine walk, from the Washington Avenue extension, from the -- excuse me, from the -- yes, it is the Washington Avenue -- no, it's the Ocean Drive extension, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5 you're looking out, you know, to the north, along the coastline, and then you switch back, and you're looking out over -- you know, out over Fisher Island, then you're looking back toward the City, and then you're looking down toward Biscayne Bay, then you're looking back out to the east, and then you descend back down to beach level again. So, the park has different zones and different areas, and the concept was to literally, you know, create that transition, from the beach, to natural dunes, to. the formatted serpentine dune, and then the, into the more multi - purpose use, gardens and meadows, as we transition to the west, eventually to the point where we arrive at the incredible new Obstinate Lighthouse, which is another public art project approved by the Board, by, you know, Tobias Rehberger, the very, you know, well known, well established German sculpture, and so now the Board has always been very concerned about preserving the integrity of the park. We had to do a redesign of the playground area, because the playground equipment was not up to the standard that it should have been. It began to deteriorate very quickly, and that was completely replaced. Rhonda Gracie, who is here, did the complete redesign of that, and selected all the furnishings, and we actually got in canopy structures to provide shade and OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 6 all, and that came out beautifully, and it works beautifully with the architecture of the concession building. The Art in Public Places piece, the Obstinate Lighthouse, is in the location that was identified by the, by Hargreaves Consultants for the park, and that was the approved location by the Design Review Board as well. Ironically, that ended up being the interim location for the dog park, the off -leash dog area, and so that's one of the three options that are there for your consideration today. Staff obviously believes that's the worst possible option, because you really -- even though the dog park is only going to be, you know, during certain hours of the day, the off -leash area, we just don't feel it would be at all appropriate to, you know, place a dog park, off -leash dog park necessarily around a public art piece, where you want to have children be able to come up to it at all times and look up at those, you know, incredible rainbow of colors painted on the undersides of the cylinders that create that, that lighthouse feature. And so in looking very carefully at how to do this, how to create an off -leash dog area, you know, for part -time use in the park, we worked very closely with OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 7 the Park's Department, and we feel that their, their basic inclination to locate the dog, off -leash dog area to the -- directly to the east of the Washington, Washington Plaza, the extension area, either between that, and then the one smaller walkway that bisects that kind of meadow area of the park, is really the most logical, because it's the most convenient to people that are coming in from elsewhere in the area south of 5th, to walk their dogs in the park, so it's readily, they can get in, they can get out easily. It's not the major destination areas. The major destinations areas of the park are further to the east. You're going to have -- the board has already approved the construction of the new pier, as well. So that the natural gravitation of traffic is to the -- you know, toward the east in the park, except for those that are coming around from the marina, or going to the marina as they're going to look at the lighthouse in itself. So we think that's really the logical location The next issue is, you know, how do you delineate or define what area is for off -leash purposes? I think that we can look at that either way. I mean, obviously Staff's preference would be to have no hedge, whatever, because we don't want to create another design element in the park, which was literally intended to be, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 8 you know, very simple and smooth and straightforward, so all the things that happen around the park are what really make the park, you know, such an executory experience, and so we're not recommending, we're not saying, yes, go, ahead and approve a hedge. What we're saying is that if the Parks Department finds that in order to delineate the area for . the off -leash dog area, if it's necessary to do that so that owners of dogs know the area that they're limited to, that's something that they can do in the future, if.they wish to do it. So we've kind of left that option open, and -- but we would absolutely recommend that if we do have the hedge, that it should be no more than, kept at no more than 24 inches in height, otherwise it's going to become a major landscape feature, which we do not feel would be appropriate in a park of this character. So, we're recommending kind of the combination of Site -- was it Site 2 and 3? Or 1 and 2, it's 1 and 2, I'm sorry, 1 and 2 combined, rather than the Lighthouse site. So that would be our suggestion to the board, and Rhonda and John and Kevin can further, you know, elaborate. MR. SMITH: Good morning. For the record, Kevin Smith, director of parks and Recreation. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 9 Thank you, William, for the introduction. The item that we have brought before you today was well explained by William. Just a bit of back history. We've been doing a pilot program now in South Pointe Park for an off -leash area for about 18 months. It has worked very successfully. The residents have come together and sort of monitor their own. The operational hours right now. for South Pointe off -leash area in the -- it's currently in the west, in Area Number 2, that William was referencing, are Monday through Friday, from sun -- I'm sorry, sunrise to sun -- sunrise to 10:00 a.m. daily, and then from 5:00 -- 4:00 until 7:00 on Monday through Friday only, and the remainder of the time, the area in question, or the areas in question are remained open for public use, public -- well, it's all public, but for public access and other uses of the park. So, particularly those hours are the off -leash areas. The remainder of the time the dogs are to be retained -- be maintained on leashes and are controlled under the owners on leashes. We have security in the park, Code Enforcement is in the park. Our staff are in the park also. So it is something that started out as a OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 10 test program and has worked out very effectively. So, just as a little bit of history in that area. So, to help you make your decisions. MR. CARY: Thank you. MS. GRACIE: Good morning. MR. CARY: Good morning. MS. GRACIE: Rhonda Gracie with Parks and Recreation. The three sites initially, and I agree with Staff with regard to the lighthouse location, which is on Site Number 3, the reason that was included in the beginning was because that was the original site for the pilot program initially, and that kind of set the tone as to the square footage for the off -leash area. That site was relocated to Area Number 1, when the construction of the lighthouse was done. So we were asked to present the three locations, and then we've included Area 2, which essentially is Area 1, and extending that to the sidewalk, the cut area. Opposed to having a division down the middle of that grassy area, we wanted to created natural boundaries using the existing sidewalk that you can see, that's to the east, along with the partial serpentine to the north, and then of course you have the Washington Avenue Plaza to the west, and then the -- along Government Cut, where its a raised wall and OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 11 designed as a sea wall. So, by doing that, we increase the area for the dog owners, almost double it. However, there is a lot of trees there. So the area that the dogs run in is actually within the grassy area inside of the treeline, so that they don't end up -- they tend to want to loop when they're running, and this way it will prevent them from, like, actually running and banging into some of the trees and knocking themselves out. So, the actual area -- I have seen it happen. The actual area will be closer, when you discount those trees to, the actual area that they currently have, which is about 18, 1900 square feet, even though technically if you include the tree area it's much larger. Also by allowing us to extend it to those natural barriers, we believe that if -- we would not necessarily need a hedge, but if needed, it would be a very low lying hedge, it would be -- Ilex Schilling (phonetic) would be our recommendation, which is a Florida native shrub. It is highly salt tolerant. It grows extremely slow. It can handle extreme conditions, the high PH, and we would look at rec, you know, maintaining that at about 24 inches or so. At full maturity, which takes about 10 years, it would get to about 36 inches in height, at the OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 12 maximum. It takes to sheering, so it would be easy for us to maintain at a lower level, if that were needed at a later time. So, we personally prefer taking it to that sidewalk. If we end up with just using and dividing and going with Area 1, then I believe that you would end up needing some kind of division down the middle of the grassy area to kind of de -mark where that location is, and we'd prefer not to have that line through the middle of the turf area. MS. FERNANDEZ: If I may, Chair Members of the Commission -- of the Committee? Hilda Fernandez from the City Managers Office. The off -leash program has been working now a little over a year, relatively successfully with enforcement at South Pointe Park. Just to clarify, as William has, this is not a designated dog park. Dog parks are fenced in environments. We have five of those throughout the city, six if you count the smaller one on Collins Avenue. This is a designated off -leash area. So, it's very important for us that it is clear, that the majority of the time this area is available for any other type of use. The idea of including a hedge around that area was the Commission's suggestion during a public OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 13 discussion of the pilot project, and that is why that item is before you today. If we had continued, obviously, without the need for a hedge, we wouldn't be here before you today, but at the end of the day there was a request, during one of the Commission meetings, that we consider placing a hedge. We explained that the placement of the hedge would require DRB consideration, and that is why we are here today. The Commission also did not give us specific direction as to which of the three they preferred. They said bring it to the DRB, and have the DRB suggest, based on the possibility of a hedge, et cetera, which of the three locations would be preferable. So we are here today asking for your consideration of, if there was going to be a hedge, what would be the preferable location, or what would be the preferable location as a whole. This would go back to our Commission for them to consider your recommendation, in terms of the potential location, as the Commission has to consider whether to make this a permanent program at South Pointe Park. What is very important for us is whatever, if there is a decision to put a hedge, and we can come OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 14 back with an explanation that it might not be necessary with Option 2 to put a hedge, which is the larger west lawn, clearly, you know, the expectation would be, if there is a hedge,. that it be done in such a way that makes it clear and obvious that the general public can access this space at anytime, whether there are dogs there during the off -leash hours, or even during the other hours of the day, not create a barrier that makes it seem as if it's a fenced in area, because that's not what it's intended to be, which is why it's recommended to be a low hedge, that there be multiple openings around the hedge, to invite people to go into the space during the day, when that is not an off -leash area, and they can certainly go in the space when it is an off -leash area if they want to, but that is one of the concerns we had, to continue to make sure everyone understood this is intended to be an off -leash area, not an enclosed dog park, but rather an amenity to that entire park, and that entire community. Thank you very much for your consideration today. MR. CARY: Also, Mr. Chairman, Dennis Lava (phonetic) is here today. Dennis is Staff to the Art in Public Places Committee, and so if you have any questions relative to the site that surrounds the Art in Public Places, the Obstinate Lighthouse, Dennis is available, if OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 15 you'd like to ask him anything. MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you. Is there anybody from the public that wishes to speak on this application? MS. CULICK: Yes, I do. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Please approach the microphone. State your name and address. MS. CULICK: Hello. My name is Jean Culick (phonetic). I live at 400 South Pointe Drive. I'm a 13 -year resident, and I can explain to you, I walk daily in the park, and I love this park. I saw it constructed, and I'm afraid that I have to dispute the facts that have been presented. The multiple use of the park has been seriously unbalanced by the extension, especially the December extension of sunset to 10:00 a.m., and 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. You are fully aware that in this climate, that -- those are the best hours of the day. People, elderly people, the Orthodox community nearby, used to go and sit under the trees in the afternoon, read their books, people from the nursing homes were wheeled out by the attendants or their relatives, young couples, students, nannies teaching little children how to walk on the grass, which is a soft fall for the babies, all these OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 16 people have been driven away by the heavy pollution caused by this influx of 50, 60 dogs, over six hours a day, urinating, polluting the ground. In effect, the weekend hours, and those other non - restricted hours are a danger to the public, because in this climate, with no rain, the ureal salts clings to the soil, and to the grass, and the vestiges of the feces, obviously, and this is dangerous. I would like you to put up some notices to say to people, do not use, do not go into that area. It is heartbreaking for me to see people having a birthday, spread out, and sitting on that grass, which is so heavily polluted. I have just seen, just before that, the dogs running there. It is a really grave situation, on top of which the dog owners are definitely not self - policing. They are disdainful and shabbily rude to the security guards, who are doing an impossible job. There is no way to delineate these boundaries, there is no way. The dog owners' attitude, and this is the least rude one I have heard is, what's the difference? They have been unleashing as soon as they enter by Washington Avenue, or by Continuum, or by the Beach Road. As for the marina, they're coming in from OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 17 there, and they consider the Lighthouse area as still an off -leash park. If any member of the public, or a security guard said, that dog should be on a leash, as I did to a young man, whose dog -- he was talking on the phone, the dog had defecated by the rocks, where all the brides, and their quinces, and the tourists take pictures, it's the heaviest usage in the evenings, 4:00 to 7:00, sunset time, tourists are coming to photograph, there is throngs of people, I said to him, are you aware he was furious with me, and gave me a mouthful. So, you know, it sounds wonderful in theory, but this is not appropriate for a world class park, which is so beautiful, has varied walks. The dog owners should, in fact, be walking their dogs. In fact, they're sitting on the berm, that lovely little hilly area, and I dispute that that is not a main entrance, because parents and little kids come running in, and because there is a lack of hills, they run up there and they tumble down. I mean, this is such a delight to see, I see it from my balcony, I have an overview of this, a grandstand view. You are all welcome to come and have a drink and watch this if you don't want to go to the park, but it is, it is really sad to see how this park will deteriorate. The Park's Department does a brilliant job, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 18 they are trying so hard, and they've maintained it beautifully, but we know that the urine -- yes, let's give them applause, but the urine -- yeah -- but the urine, the urine, as anybody who has had a lawn, and whose neighbor's dog uses it regularly, stains brown. So, we're going to have a dust bowl there. It is really a very serious situation, and it is unbalanced, and you cannot possibly hope to cope with four -- two -foot hedges, two -foot hedges. They're Great Danes, they're standard Poodles, they're Alsatians, there are big Labradors. I've seen two big Labradors streaking out from that shrubby area behind the berms, and the lady had a long dress, and she was trying to control those two dogs. They were out by the Smith & Wollensky drop. It is very dangerous. The only good thing about the lighthouse area, was that it was furthest away from the cars. Now, the berm, and the area where all these dogs are scurrying around, is 30 yards, those shrubberies, the hedge you're talking about is 30 yards away from the main roadway. The dogs are out of control. The owners are sitting on the berm, chatting with each other, and there is a snobbery between the dog owners, because most of them don't want their dogs to mix with the main lawn users. So they're the ones who have OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 19 taken to the berms, they're sitting there with their backs to the cars, the dogs are running over the hills, into the shrubberies, round, back again, and what's more, these big dogs and little dogs are fighting. We are going to have the most grotesque accidents, a mixture of cars, little babies, all these big and small dogs. It is really ridiculous that you are considering giving over this wonderful vista of green lawns and coconut plantations that were in visage, as Mr. Cary explained so well, by this well classed architect, and you're giving it over, the most expensive pieces of real estate. 33139, didn't they just say that was the top ten ZIP codes in the country, we're giving it over to the dogs. You will be a laughing stock. That park will not be a pleasant place. Thank you very much for listening to me. I'm not used to talking to the public, but I hope I've put my point here. MR. CARY: Thank you for your comments. Is there anybody else that would like to speak on this application? Please approach the microphone, and state your name and address. MR. WEIMAN: Good morning. My name is Larry Weiman (phonetic). I'm a resident at 50 South OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 20 Pointe, and I'm also on the board of the SoBe K -9 organization, and we were involved with the Parks Department, and with the counsel in the implementation and the operation of the program. I'm not sure that this is the appropriate forum to be talking about the nature of the dog park being there or not, I'm not sure that's what's before us today. I think it's more an issue of location of the park, and design of the hedge, if there is to be a hedge. From the standpoint -- so, to address those first, from the standpoint of the majority of the dog owners, from my personal standpoint, the location that Parks has suggested, and sort of the extension of the Area 2, away from the lighthouse, we think is correct, we think it's the best practical place for it to be. The lighthouse area has come out extraordinarily well, and as someone who is in the park four or five times a day, I can tell you it really is one of the great pieces of urban park design, the sculpture is wonderful, and the use of that area now has grown, so that I don't think it would be appropriate to relocate the dogs back there. The success of these dog off -leash programs is generally a question of trying to minimize the contact between the dogs and the other users of the park, and some OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 21 of the issues you just heard described, I think are very much the exception to the rule, and Parks, and I think Hilda can verify, that the level of complaint has fallen dramatically from the initial operation of the pilot program, and I think even further since we've relocated to that middle point, because there is a natural separation with the edge of the cut walk, and with the walks that surround it, and that separation tends to minimize opportunities for passersby, people on bicycles, people on skateboards, mothers with children, to come in contact with the dogs, and while a 24 -inch hedge is not going to contain a Great Dane, they do actually, if you're there, and I am twice a day, if you're there, the dogs do actually obey and stay contained within those boundaries, even that little, I guess, 18- inches, or 20- inches, that the cut walk is raised up over the grass area, tends to keep the dogs in boundary. Now, while there are clearly cases where the dogs leave the boundary and come back, or leave the boundary and are called back, by and large, if you've been there and seen the operation of it, it's become a tremendous community event, a tremendous source of people coming together, neighbors knowing each other. There are, in fact, 40 or 50 dogs at any given time in the evening, and it really has been a OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 22 tremendous use of the park, tremendous community, at a time when there are plenty of areas of the park for people to do other things. It's one of many grass and public areas there. We've worked closely with the SoBe and Mothers Committee, and they don't have any objections to it. SoBe, itself, hasn't had any objections to the way it's operating, because there is plenty of opportunity for people to migrate over to the playground, or to the other open grass areas between the playground and the cut, and so from an operational standpoint, I think it's working quite a bit better than you would have inferred from the prior comments, and the enforcement matters are things that we, as dog owners, do take strongly, we do try to self - police our other members. One does not observe any large amount of unclean dog waste there. The park is sprinkled, so I imagine that some of the problems that you just heard alleged about the dog urine there, are not really an issue, and even though the grass is taking use from the dogs running, and from people using it, from my observation it's no different than the use that the grass is taking on the other side, where it's used by people picnicking, and soccer, and the other activities that go on in the park. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 23 So, in summary, the dog owners themselves are very happy to keep it where it is. I don't believe it should be relocated back to the lighthouse either, and if the board is amenable to the placement of the shrubbery, at the request of a couple of the Commissioners, we have no objections to that, and think that the design that Parks has put forward is fine. Thank you. MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you for your comments. MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I should just clarify for the board, that the City Commission, of course, has to take into consideration the needs of all of the users of the park, and the issue of whether there should or should not be an off - leash area in the park is a policy decision by the City Commission, not by this board, and what this board has been requested to look at is what, of the three areas that have been identified, are the best areas for the off -leash dog area, and what the -- the configuration, or conditions of that area should be. Its not this Board's responsibility to make a policy as to whether or not there can be, and you can see there are very excellent and passionate arguments on both sides. There, you know, always will be, and both speakers have spoken brilliantly in representing their own perspectives. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 24 MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of this item, we will have to pick Area 1, 2 or 3, that's what you're telling me? MR. CARY: You'll have to select one of the three areas, or the combination of 1 and 2, which is the recommendation of the Staff, and I think which is the area that the Parks Department supports, because it's delineated by the cut walk, which is 16- inches above the meadow area, and as you said, that was a specific design dementia that was selected, so that you could have seating along the -- along the cut walk, to look both out to the cut, and look into the meadow area, and then the three walkways would define the other three sides. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. We will do our best to keep that in consideration. It's a little -- I mean, for me, personally, it's going to be a little bit tricky, because I see all the issues that both sides have been talking about, and I'll talk a little bit about it when it's my turn to speak, but I'd like to hear from my other board members. Okay. Carol. MS. HOUSEN: I have one question of Staff, and I do understand, thank you, Mr. Cary for clarifying our position, that we're here to help select the proper location, and approve the shrubbery that's going over it, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 25 but I have a question of Staff. What's the total acreage of South Pointe Park? MR. CARY: Is it 18 acres? MS. FERNANDEZ: I think it's 22 acres. MR. CARY: 22 acres? MS. FERNANDEZ: But of course you've got the areas that are dunes and you've got the buildings. MS. HOUSEN: Right, right. No, because I totaled up the three areas, which came up to 70,000 square feet, which is just under 1.2 acres of proposal off -leash dogs. MS. FERNANDEZ: And we wouldn't recommend all three. We're just looking for one area in particular. MS. HOUSEN: Right. Okay. No, no, that was my question. I wasn't sure of the total of the park. Well, I would never think to recommend all three, and never would I put it by the public art, which is the lighthouse, but I think my personal opinion on 1 and 2, is just to take into consideration, it should be delineated whether it be shrubby or a fence, only because it's not a dog park, and elderly people, and children -- I go out with grandchildren, one is horrified of dogs, the amount of people that we're loosing in the park, and I'm an animal supporter, but I think that we need to not be taking away the prime of our park for the dogs. I think OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 26 either designate part of it for dogs, that's not our opinion here, I mean, it's not our position to make that selection, but that needs to be considered in choosing the one area of the off - leash, because it could be an unsafe situation to an elderly or a child, and I think the City needs to take that into consideration. It's just my point of it, but I would never think to put it anywhere near Area 3, that's prime property, and I think it should be the people's place to share it. That's my opinion. MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you, Carol. MS. MEDINA: Well, thank you for the presentation. It is a tricky decision, in that there is a high demand for an off -leash area, and there are many apartment buildings there, high density condominiums. You know, as a person who had a white Shepard, I am, you know, in support of the use, but on the other hand, there is also the issues that have been brought up by the public, and so- called snobbery, and sort of non - compliance of, you know, due diligence, as far as cleaning up and restricting your dogs to the area. First of all, I think Area Number 3 is definitely off for consideration. I mean, I was there the other day, it's a -- the Tubias artwork, public artwork is just awesome at night. During the day you have the FEC -- you have the slip next door, where you can watch not only OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 27 the Government Cut, but actually be on the edge of the water there. So I think that area should not even be considered. I understand the rationale for having a hedge now. At first I thought, well, you know, the Hargreaves original plan, the master plan for the park was to keep it as open as possible, but if there are issues from the public, as far as folks not containing their dogs, maybe -- I don't know if the hedge is going to work, frankly, but I think, if anything, there is some delineation that would help keep the dogs in the area. I would really want to know a little bit more from the Parks Department, the monitoring and the compliance, because you said that, you know, things have been working well, but on the other hand we hear from the public otherwise. I think Area Number 1, which is where it's been used now as the pilot area, would be, for me, personally the preferred area. Its 18,000 square feet. I don't know how that compares to, even though this is not a bark park, dog park, the other seven parks that exist in the area, how big are they in comparison to Area Number 1, at 18,000 square feet, are they typically about the same size? MS. GRACIE: Most the areas within South OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 28 Beach dog park per dog run are approximately that. We have at Flamingo Park, we have two dog run areas, they're about 20,000 square feet each. At this particular point in time, they're a little bit smaller before we did the expansion. At the RDA, which is right off of Collins Avenue and 2nd, that space is significantly smaller, it's about 6,000 square feet and it crosses the street at Washington Avenue, at the dog park there at 2nd and Washington, that's about 24,000 square feet. So, it's a bit more. MS. MEDINA: Yes, I think that - -- MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, I was going to say, just if I may, the -- in our research we found that a really usable dog park is approximately one acre, or a little bit more, and as a matter of fact, we just opened a -- or are finishing up North Shore open space, and it's about that size, and we found -- what we've also noticed is since we opened up both areas, because of the trees that are in the western section of -- sort of in Area Number 1, having both sections open is basically giving you almost the square footage of the 18,000, when you combine them, that has open space for the dogs to run, and we have also found that having the open space area, and expanding it a bit, it just naturally reduces the wear and tear on one section. So, having it a bit more spread OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 29 apart, or open has also been useable, and useful to us as far as a maintenance issue. MS. MEDINA: So as far as the existing trees there, you're not counting in, if you're saying 18,000 with Area 1 and 2, you're not counting in then that area where the plan -- the landscape exists, as not usable, if you will, because that's where the dogs would not go, is that what you're saying? MR. SMITH Well, I think what we're saying is that when we have observed the dogs, and the way that they're using the area now, they tend -- dogs tend to want to open -- get into an open run area. They may run through the trees and, you know, but more to the point, when an owner is throwing the ball, or if the dogs are playing and chasing each other, they will tend to go into the open spaces, where they can get some, you know, some directional run, rather than kind of going in circles or around the trees. So, although the trees are nice to have, and there is shade, and it's a nice environment for the -- but the time that the dog owners are using that off -leash area, and I do want to stress that, there is -- there are times, it's not as if this is an exclusive area just for the dog owners, the park is used predominately throughout the day by a lot of different people, and visited OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 30 throughout the day by a lot of different folks, and it's not just the dog owners that go in that area. They may be in that area when the times permit it. However, they are not there when the times are not -- you know, they are not specified to do so. MS. MEDINA: And the hours available here is really not an issue here as well, right? We're not - -- MR. SMITH: No, that's a policy that's established by the City Commission. MS. MEDINA: Yes, I still think Area Number 1, which has been proven to be effective, according to the Parks Department, would be my preferred recommendation, and with a hedge to define it somewhat. MR. SMITH: If I may be clear, what we are saying has proven to be effective. If you're calling Area 1 the two pieces - -- MS. MEDINA: No, no, Area 1 - -- MR. SMITH: You're talking about just the west section? MS. MEDINA: Right. MR. CARY: Maybe, it might help if, Rhonda, could you joint point it out on the aerial photograph, what Area 1 would be? You probably need the travelling mike, I'm sorry. If somebody can pass it to you. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 31 MS. GRACIE: Okay. So what we're talking about, in Area 1 in the aerial here, Area 1 is half of this lawn. Area 2 would be the entire lawn area. So, as you can see, in this area, you don't have as many trees that are now there. So, the area, the land mass in size is significantly smaller, but the total square footage includes those tree areas. MS. MEDINA: Excuse me, so the total square footage for Area 1 -- this sheet that we have here LA 02 says that Area 1 is 18,000, right? MS. GRACIE: Correct, Area 1 is approximately 18,000 square feet, including the tree areas. Area 2 would be Area 1, plus the area to the west of it, taking it all the way to the sidewalk, that is a combined area of 34,000 square feet. That does include the tree lined area. As Kevin had mentioned earlier, the AKA recommends individual dog run areas in a dog park, enclosed dog park to be approximately one half acre to one acre. The reason being is that it makes it a little bit easier for maintenance, a little less wear and tear. It also is a recommended size for multiple dogs, as well as being an area that is where dog owners can keep their animals under both visual and voice commands, without them getting too far ahead of them. You don't want it too OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 32 large, and you don't it want it too small. Thank you. MR. MINAGORRI: I see here that these hedges, proposed hedges that, you say that it would take 10 years for them to grow to 36 inches, but we want to maintain them at 24 inches. What's the width of these hedges? Because I see the proposal having, not just one straight line of hedges but, like, multiple. So, what would be the total width of hedges that we would have? MS. GRACIE: It would end up being about two and a half to three foot wide, that includes a little bit of a boundary for mulch on both sides, and for edging. MR. MINAGORRI: But looking at - -- MS. GRACIE: And the hedge, yes, it would be staggered rows. MR. MINAGORRI: So then each of the hedges would be two, to two and a half feet wide. So, we would have like six or seven feet? MS. GRACIE: No, you would have a maximum of three feet. They're staggered - -- MR. MINAGORRI: Looking at the photo on LA 02, and looking at your drawings, where you would have, what seems to be two hedges, what is the width of each of those hedges? Because they look to be a lot wider than they are higher. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 33 MS. GRACIE: It's a double stagger row. The two rows in width would be three foot. Showing them at 18 inches, at about the maturity level, they may get a little bit bigger, that bed line would expand at a later time. When we first install them, they will end up being significantly smaller. MR. MINAGORRI: So we're talking about -- MS. GRACIE: So we're talking about - -- MR. MINAGORRI: -- 24 inch high by about -- MS. GRACIE: Three feet. MR. MINAGORRI: -- three feet. MS. GRACIE: But in the beginning, we will not even be able to find plant material greater than one by one. If we're lucky, we might find some plant material 18 by 18. It's extremely expensive, because of the slow rate. So initially you're not going to have very much space at all right there. MR. MINAGORRI: So -- MS. GRACIE: Its planned availability. MR. MINAGORRI: -- on the north side, how come there is no hedges on that north side? Is there, like, a wall? MS. GRACIE: We have the raise - -- MR. MINAGORRI: The raise - -- MS. GRACIE: No, that's the south side, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 34 that's the Government Cut side, and that's where you already have that 16 inch raise, Government Cut walk. MR. MINAGORRI: Okay. MS. GRACIE: I can show, that in the photograph, in the one that I'm showing right now -- MR. MINAGORRI: Yes, I see it, yes. MS. GRACIE: -- you can see how many trees there actually, and palms that are in that area. MR. MINAGORRI: I see it here. MS. GRACIE: And then you can kind of see in this photograph here, that raised seat wall, we feel that that creates that actual barrier, and that a -- right, and that's from that sidewalk edge, you see that shadow, that creates that natural barrier, that would be about the height of what the shrubs will end up being, for the majority of the life span, they will eventually get to about 24, but that's going to be quite some time down the road -- MR. MINAGORRI: Okay. MS. GRACIE: -- before they'll reach that maturity level. MR. MINAGORRI: Two quick questions. So we're keeping the landscaping intact, with all the palm trees. We're just adding hedges, and then I see here, like, three entrances. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 35 My question is, it's normal for these animals to stay within a contained area, even if they're off a leash. Is that something that the gentleman from the AKA knows? I think you mentioned something, that even though we're going to have these openings, how do you really prevent an animal from just not running out of the - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Hilda Fernandez, again, from the City Managers Office. Frankly we can't prevent it, and I think that was one of the concerns that prompted the Commission to look at the concept of a hedge. When the site was the area around the public art piece, you had some natural barriers, you had the bay walk on one side, a walkway on the one side, another walkway where the boat basin is at, and then you had the rocks, so there Was a natural barrier. We have signs, we do have signs, plenty of signs on the edge of that that says off -leash hours, when and how and what have you, and the dog owners would generally make sure that their dogs remained within those physical, natural physical barriers, which was in this case just walkways, and on one side Government Cut. When the decision was made to relocate, we did something a little bit strange, because really we only OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 36 had three demarcated areas that we could demarcate in the west lawn. When we cut that west lawn in half, we had to put a sign up, which was very awkward and, frankly, became a safety issue. So people naturally, instead of just using that little corner, half of that section, started using the entire section, because we didn't want to put a sign in the middle of a park that people could run into. So we had signs on the other areas, but they were really using that entire area. Does that mean that dogs -- and I have been there -- that dogs don't jump up on the cut walk momentarily or whatever, responsible dog owners take care of their pets, and we see that everywhere. We have plenty of dog parks in our City, and we continue to get complaints about people letting their dogs loose, with a dog park in the park, at the time they get out of the car, even though they could just walk 50 feet and put the dog in a, you know, in an actual dog park, they do that now. So, what we find is, generally, that the dog owners are -- when there is a physical barrier, such as whether it's a natural physical barrier, or in this case a suggestion of a hedge, they tend to keep their dogs in there, but at the end of the day, dogs don't read signs, they're going to go wherever they're going to go It's up OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 37 to really the dog owners to figure out, hey, my dog isn't where he's supposed to be. We do do active enforcement at the park, not just during the off -leash hours. We go during the day to make sure that they're not off -leash in the off -leash area. They cannot be off -leash at 2:00 in the afternoon, anywhere in the -- first of all, they can't be anywhere in that park except with -- in this location during the designated hours off - leash. Does that mean we don't find people in the dune area? We have one particular guy on a bicycle who loves to leave his dog loose all the time. We issue violations. There are ticketed offenses. We work with the police. We work with the park. We work with sanitation, and code compliance. We do dog details at all of our parks, because this is a concern for a lot of our residents, but in particular on the off -leash issue in South Pointe Park we do enforce. But if I could just go back to, Ms. Medina mentioned the issue of the 18,000 square feet, let me -- we had initially tried to give them a comparable space by doing Option 1 when we relocated them temporarily because of the construction of the Art in Public Places piece. A couple of things happened. That also coincided with the South Point Right of Way Project, where OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 38 we took a lot of trees, and all off a sudden were able to plant a lot of wonderful new palm trees in South Point Park, specifically in the west lawn. So we did have enhanced landscaping that has occurred, coincidently, in the last year, while we were also, at a portion of which, using that part of the park. So we did hear from dog owners, when this issue came to the Commission, where they said, that little section is now so full of trees, that the open green space has been diminished. So, give us the entire section, that they thought they had all along, all the way to the walkway, because now we have so much trees around the edge, they're really, for purpose of long runs, throwing the ball far, so Fitto can run, you know, whatever, 50 yards to get a ball, we've lost a lot, it's been diminished if you leave it in that little space, with all the new trees that have been planted. So when we went to the Commission, we were -- that's one of the things we said, you know, these are the options, Option 1, or take it to the walkway, we have some natural boundaries, it's now walkways on all three sides, and the elevated cut walk, which is a differential, about the height of a hedge, on the south side, and that was one of the recommendations, which is presented as Option B, but why Option 1 -- Option 2, rather, why OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 39 Option 1 has been an issue for a lot of the -- it was an issue for a lot of the dog owners, because they felt really the size got diminished with the new plantings. Those plantings were not the original plantings. If you just said linear square feet, it was 18,000, comparable to Art in Public Places, but when you consider all the trees from open space, you know, perspective, the dogs owner feel it's a little less than 18, 000. MR. MINAGORRI: One last question, Hilda -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir. MR. MINAGORRI: -- is there any plans to do any benches or anything for pet owners to sit down? MS. FERNANDEZ: That would be, obviously, the next issue we'd have to consider. There are benches -- what ends up happening with the cut walk side, is that because it is elevated, people right now just sit there, you know, that's where they typically sit to watch their pets. We haven't really talked about whether we would place benches on the other side, and they sit on the berm that's on the north side of it, because it is an elevated berm. You know, we did have benches around the, you know, Art in Public Places piece, that was part of the OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 40 original plan, and people sat on the elevated cut walk there as well to watch their dogs, when it was in the Public Art Piece, but really at this point you have a natural seating area created by that elevated cut walk, which made this -- why it made this area preferable for some of the folks, because, wow, you know, we had this whole area where we can sit and, you know, be with our dogs, and watch our dogs, which hopefully they're doing, obviously, we hope. So, again, the issue right now is hedge, no hedge, square hedge, you know, that's really the reason why we're before you today. The program worked without a hedge, but when we were having to deal with a permanent location, a suggestion was made, that to address some concerns, maybe some low lying line hedge to create a better physical barrier beyond a walkway would be preferred and, you know, that's why the item is before you today. MR. CARY: Again, the Staff has recommended just allowing the hedge to be an option. We're not recommending that you require a hedge. We're saying that, let the Parks Department, the administration see how the program is working out without a hedge. If they find that they need one, we put a condition in there whereby they can have one, but the height should not exceed 24 inches, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 41 and it should be of a certain slow growing variety that is salt tolerant and all of that. So - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: Saraj. MR. SABA: Good morning, and thanks for coming. I'm going to start by saying that I have owned dogs before in my life, and I love animals, but I don't have any now, and that's primarily because I have a two year old boy, and a ten month old boy, and I have enough excitement in my life without a dog, but the comparison is that dogs are a lot of work for an owner, obviously, and, you know, when you mix a dog with the general public, and people that don't have dogs, there is bound to be some conflicts, and that's generally why, when you have a dog park, it's completely separate. In most, you know, park situations, when . you're designing a park, you have -- you have that sort of a discussion before the park is designed. You know, I wasn't involved in the design of this park, so I can only imagine that that either wasn't part of the discussions of designing the park, or it, you know, wasn't important to the people at the time. But regardless, I mean, I think, you know, that really there needs to be another location, if there OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 42 is going to be a dog park. I mean, you said it's not really a dog park, but I don't really see how you can have a dog park, or even a quasi dog park in a real park. That being said, if it has to be somewhere in this, in this park, I wouldn't put it in any of the three locations, quite honestly. I think anywhere you put a hedge in those locations is going to, is going to disrupt the harmony of the design, the flow of the park. I mean, so all three of those locations are out, as far as I'm concerned. If it had to be somewhere within the boundaries of the park, I would look at other locations, or I would look at somewhere off, you know, site, but that's not an option. You know, I mean, I have been in the planning and design -- I've been involved in the planning and design of several parks and, you know, it's -- I have never seen anything like this really happen successfully. There is always conflicts and, you know, dog owners, as responsible as they are, they can clean up after their pet, a hundred percent of the dog owners can pick up after their pet, but they can't stop the dogs from running and, you know, the cause of the dog, you know, bringing up the sod, the urine of the dog, which nobody can pick up, is going to deteriorate the sod, and so anywhere you put this OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 43 is -- you've got to be prepared that you're going to have a torn up lawn, maybe not dismal, like the lady said, but it's not going to be very attractive over time. So, my recommendation is to look for another location. If that can't be done, then definitely no hedge, because I think that's really going to disrupt the flow and the harmony of the park. MS. FERNANDEZ: If I can, Mr. Chair, just to answer, when the park was reaching its final design, it went through its voter process, there was discussion about the fact that this was not going to have a dog park within it, a designated dog park, which is a fenced in dog park, and when meetings the park was of our Board about this particular The end finally opened, there were multiple -- of our Commission Committees subject. product was the creation of a dog park on Washington and Alton -- Washington and 2nd Street, two blocks north of the park, and that is a fenced in dog park, we took an open spaced park, diagonally across from Collins little dog park, and created a large dog park, with a water feature, benches, everything that a dog park typically is, like the dog park we have at Pine Tree, the one we have at Flamingo, the one we have at Belle Isles, like the brand new one we're building in North Beach, we built a dog park on Washington and 2nd specifically to OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 44 address the concerns of the dog owning community south of 5th, that this park, when it reopened, did not permit -- did not provide for a dog area. To be clear, apparently when the park, before it was closed down, and shut down for construction, was being informally and, frankly, illegally used as dog off -leash area. So that you understand, the City code, let alone the County code, did not allow the designation of an off -leash area. It was because of the dog owning community that came to the City and said, great, we have a dog park on Washington, but we still want an off -leash area in Washington Park, but the City had to go to the County and change County code to provide for enabling language to allow this City to designate an off -leash area. So there has been a lot of discussion. We actually had to go and change County code to permit the designation of an off - leash area in our City as a result of multiple discussions on this very issue.' Ultimately the Commission chose to recommend a pilot program to provide for off -leash hours, limited hours, in an identified location, which is the pilot program that has been on -going now since we were able to change County code, and that was in December of 2010. The problem is right now, that before the OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 45 Commission makes a final determination on the off - leash, they have said we want to take a look at adding, potentially, a hedge somewhere around wherever the off -leash area is going to be as a component of that designated off -leash area. But in answer to your question, yes, there was discussion about a dog park, and a decision was made to build a dog park on Washington Avenue, two blocks north of the park, but in addition to that, there was a determination by our Commission to also provide for off -leash hours at South Pointe, and we've proceeded with the pilot project as a result of the Commission's direction. MR. SABA: Is that dog park used? MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, very well used, including the Collins Park one, diagonally, there is one across from Big King (phonetic), it's a very small one, and diagonal from that, on the Washington -- on Washington and 2nd, because they're both on 2nd, is the larger dog park, it has a water feature, it's a nice, you know, area. We, you know, went to the -- that was what the Commission concluded, rather than building a permanent dog park at South Pointe Park, in response to concerns about aesthetics, and how that would impact the design, the original design and intent of that park, beautiful park. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 46 MR. CARY: And it's interesting, Hilda, because that park at 2nd and Washington was originally designed as a wonderful people park. MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes. MR. CARY: Especially for kids, it had a little auditorium area and all of that, and then because of the desire by local residents to have a dog park, we then had to completely redesign it, Rhonda did a complete redesign to make it exclusively for dogs. So it is really, as you say, it's a dog park, it's not an off -leash area. So, now we will actually have two dog parks and an off -leash area. MS. FERNANDEZ: Right. MR. CARY: So it's kind of a dog heaven. MS. FERNANDEZ: If you're south of 5th. MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, I completely agree with Seraj, and for the record, I have two dogs. So, I'm very familiar with what dogs -- well, what my dogs do, and how they behave, and how they don't behave. So, I just have a few questions. You had mentioned that the ideal size for an off -leash area would be -- maybe be an acre. Does -- how many -- tell me where the acre sites are the city has now, that are off - leash. MS. FERNANDEZ: I think we're referring to OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 47 it like a dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: The typical thing is like a fenced in dog park. MS. GRACIE: A typical fenced in dog park would consist of two dog runs, an acre in size total, with each side being approximately one half acre. The reason that you would have two sides is so that way, if one side becomes heavily denuded, you can close one side and still keep another side open. It also allows you to have one side designated for 25 pounds and under only, and the other side open to any size dog. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. GRACIE: And then what you do is you rotate them, and what that does is that allows us, from an operational standpoint, to be able to rotate the sides, because the bigger dogs will tear up the site faster. So we would periodically -- and we do this now at Flamingo Park, at the North Beach dog park, which is up at North Shore Open Space Park, we -- and Pine Tree, we automatically rotate those sides, as we start to see it denude, so that way we end up replacing a smaller amount of sod, and we're able to actually fence off that area that we're replacing without actually closing that dog run. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 48 The dog owners are respectful of that, and then we're able to keep both sides open, and we're able to manage it a little bit better. MS. FERNANDEZ: So in answer to your question, the North Shore Open Space Park, dog park, is approximately -- which is a brand new dog park, about an acre. MR. HAGOPIAN: Unfenced. MS. FERNANDEZ: It's a fenced dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Oh, fenced, okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: This is the only designated off -leash area in the entire city, is in South Pointe right now. We have the dog park at Pine Tree Park right now. We are in the midst of discussions, just had a community meeting three weeks -- well, at the end of January, because there has been a -- there was a request for a designated off -leash area. As an alternative, we are looking at making the current enclosed dog park twice the size, to almost an acre, which seems to have addressed the concerns of the people who wanted an off -leash area, that felt that their little, their dog park was too small. Belle Isle is very small, and Flamingo is slightly less than an acre. So, I mean, frankly it's a space issue, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 49 because you have to take green space out for a designated dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Sure. MS. FERNANDEZ: And the reason we don't have larger parks, more than an acre, is because that's been a restraint. MR. HAGOPIAN: And the Washington fenced park, how big is that, the one that's down here? MS. GRACIE: The one at 2nd Street -- MR. HAGOPIAN: Uh -huh. MS. GRACIE: and Washington Avenue is 24,000 square feet. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: And Collins, across the street is about six. MS. GRACIE: Yes, about six - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: And currently you said there are no other people parks that have an off -leash -- designated off -leash program going on? MS. FERNANDEZ: There was a request for Pine Tree Park to have a designated off -leash area, with complaints about the size of the current enclosed fence. We went and -- we were directed to have a community workshop, which we did, and one of the options was, we presented, because there were concerns about the nature of OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 50 how that park functions, is a little bit different, with a designated off -leash area and, you know, with the pathways and what have you. So the alternative, we proffered at the community meeting, was enlarging the current enclosed dog park, and changing the way that the runs are coordinated, to create longer areas, and we believe, based on the people at the meeting, that that solution is going to be the one that will be brought forward, and potentially approved by the Commission. So we would not designate a dog park -- off -leash area there. It would remain just a larger dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MR. CARY: Hilda, I would expect that the City Commission and the administration is going to monitor this area very carefully, and if they find, you know, after a year that there are serious problems with this being an off -leash dog area, that the City Commission would then take action to reverse its decision, or to do something else. MS. FERNANDEZ: That was the purpose of the pilot, and why they didn't do the designation to begin with. So we have been reporting back to the Commission on a regular basis. We have been providing the statistics. You know, obviously we do have enforcement OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 51 issues occasionally, people that don't know, or that just don't care, and put their dogs off -leash during the day when they shouldn't, or are in the wrong areas when they should, would have an opportunity to put in the right area. So we do monitor that, our code compliance staff monitors all of our parks, because this remains an issue of interest to our residents, people who want to go to the park and enjoy it, not -- you know, I have dogs as well, but I don't necessary want to have to worry about large dogs when I'm at a park, in particular. So that is something we do monitor, Code, the Parks Department, and the security staff, in particular. South Pointe Park is unique, because we do have full -time security at South Pointe Park. So, you know, unlike other parks, where we don't have on present security guard all day, we do have that at South Pointe Park, on top of the park staff, and on top of the Code compliance staff, that has to do routine checks there anyway, for many other issues, including the off - leash, and pooper scooper laws and all of that. MR. HAGOPIAN: But I would hope the security is not had -- this has nothing to do with maintaining and monitoring people - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Not the dog park. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 52 MR. HAGOPIAN: Yes, okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: General security. MR. HAGOPIAN: I mean, dogs pooping in the park, I mean, I hope they're keeping everybody safe. MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes. MR. HAGOPIAN: So the hours of the park will stay the same as they are in the pilot program right now. There is no idea that perhaps the hours would be extended, or - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Actually, funny you should ask. The original hours were only until 9:00 a.m., and beginning at 5:00 p.m. While we were discussing the pilot project recently, and as we were directed to proceed with looking at a hedge, at the same time there was a request by the dog owning community south of 5th to extend the hours. So those extended hours have actually only been in place, I believe, two months. So it used to be sunrise to 9:00 a.m., and 5:00 p.m. to sun -- to 7:00 p.m., and at the request of the Commission, and approved by the Commission subsequently, the hours are now until 10:00 and beginning at 4:00. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: I, at this point, you know, I can't tell you whether they would be looking at extended OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 53 hours, but the idea was it's an off -leash designated area, not intended to be a full -time dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. I -- a lot of what Seraj said, I agree from a landscaping -- I think it's really strange to have this little hedged in .area, right at what I consider to be one of the main entries into the park. I mean, of course, cars park in the parking lot, people walk in from all different areas, but this sort of little paved area, that's to the east of the apogee and -- I mean, this is where people walk in, and where you can come down, and to have it right there, this little hedged area, to me it just seems really off, off the mark from the planning standpoint, from the landscape side of how this park is. I mean, we're so diligent about, when they were redesigning the playground area, and the canopies, I mean, to think that we would put this, what I consider, and again I have dogs, but with or without the hedge, its sort of like an off limits area to people now that don't have dogs. I mean, honestly, I get it, people have to pick up the debris left by their dog, which is only the solid debris, the other debris stays there, and you're not really getting it all anyway, depending on what you feed OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 54 you're dog, we all know what dogs do and, I mean, will people even sit there any more? I mean, I would never have a picnic in that area. I live on an Island that has a median, where everybody on my street, every other person has a dog. I don't know, you've been monitoring what's been happening here for last six months, I don't know if you have any stats on the percentage of residents in this area that have dogs and use this park, or how many people are using the park with their dogs but, you know, everybody -- their dog goes there, some people pick it up, some don't. Here, of course, it's monitored. I'm assuming some people maybe leave it and they -- you know, I know that there are responsible dog owners, it's not your responsibility to be -- to make everybody a responsible dog owner, but, I mean, even knowing people are picking it up, I'm not putting a blanket down there, and I'm certainly -- I mean, I don't have any little kids, but I would -- that whole part of the park to me would be kind of off limits, and it just seems really weird to me. I mean, I understand there is lots of dog owners, I have two dogs. So, I'm all about to have a designated spot where they can go and run, and go to the bathroom, but I would never expect -- like, if I saw somebody picnicking there, I'd be, like, hey, do you know that, you know, 50 OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 55 dogs a day come here and run, and I agree, the lawn is -- you know, will get kind of torn up. I don't really understand the hedge thing. My -- you know, I have Terriers, you know, so they're not huge dogs, but anyway, again, there is a zillion different breeds of Terriers, and they love to go in hedges, and through hedges, above hedges, on top of hedges, they'll jump off of roofs. I mean, my dog has done all those things. So, I don't really -- if there is not going to be a fence, I don't really get the hedge either. So, I'm really not in -- I don't really feel much love for this project. I don't understand it. I applaud the residents in the area that got together and somehow got the zoning changed to allow this. I mean, I -- wow, I mean, that's amazing. The Commission approved a pilot program. It doesn't mean the Commission is going to approve the final program, and for me, I'm not going to support this project on this Board right now. MR. CARY: Jason, my understanding is that the purpose of the hedge is to educate the dog owners, not to -- not to educate the dogs. The dogs are going to jump right over a two -foot hedge, obviously, but it's for the purpose of the City to be able to enforce, and just say to the owners, that is the area, if it should be needed. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 56 MR. HAGOPIAN: Maybe a few signs, signs would be less intrusive and just as effective, I don't know, you need to go in where those hedges are. I'm not worried about -- I mean, I'm hoping at least the owners will understand that this is the dog area, but, I mean, a dog you can't -- you know, a dog is going to, like you said, it's going to do what it's going to do. I mean, even some people that were in support of the park, in their descriptions were saying, oh, well, you know, dogs -- we have two different kind of parks, because. this park, first, this one is the grass, I forgot the word you used, but it's going to get destroyed, so they switched to this one, and they can fix the sod and, I mean, we don't even have that luxury here. So, this thing is going to get worn, worn down, and it's kind of in the first part of the park everybody sees when they come down that walkway. MS. FERNANDEZ: If I may, in all fairness, those are dog parks that are used full -time for that purpose. I'm not suggesting that the hours that we're suggesting, that have been approved by the Commission, these are the hours the Commission approved, are going to result in proportionately less damage to the grass, but at the end of the day, you know, I want to just be clear, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 57 those are designated dog parks, that's all they're used for, the dogs are in there, presumably only in there off - leash, and tearing around, and doing whatever they do. This is not a full -time dog park. It's a designated area. It's used limit hours, and for the most part, you know, the folks that go out there use it, because we obviously go out there often, they're running their dogs, and when they're done they're taking them home, because these are folks mho live in condos, and aren't folks that have .a backyard where they're able to do that behind their homes. MR. HAGOPIAN: Right, I understand. MS. FERNANDEZ: But that would be the difference between, you know, a dog park and the denuding, which I think is the term. MR. HAGOPIAN: Denuding, that's a new word for me. MS. FERNANDEZ: The denuding of the green area. MR. SABA: Would you say that the grass, the lawn in the off -leash area, the current off -leash area is exactly the same as other areas in the park, where, like - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, we have sod issues in the park as a whole, as you may know. So, and I know what OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 58 we have there right now is rye grass but, John, you can speak to what the - -- MR. OLDENBURG: Yes, if I may, John Oldenburg, Parks and Recrecration Department. The photo that you're looking at on the screen right now, that's a current photograph, and that is the current area that's being used as the off -leash area. That site has been used for that con -- that's in the same condition that it was six months ago when we started using that site. Because we've got a larger space, and just to make a point, the dogs in South Pointe, the off -leash area is an answer to the existing condition that there are dogs. I mean, the demographics have changed dramatically. If we build three more parks, they're going to be filed with dogs. It's not a question of, you know, whether we need this area or not. It's a question of, it's addressing a need. It does demarcate an area where people can run their dogs, and it does lessen the dogs that are in the rest of the park. Historically the eastern part of the park, which is east of the restaurant, where the playground is, and has the Pavilion building, is the greater used area for the patrons, for the picnicking and the sitting and the area there, also the exercise goes on there, too. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 59 So, you know, knowing that the dogs are going to visit the park, and most of the dog owners that we have seen in that park are residents that are walking their dog, not getting out of a car. The other dog parks we have in the city are generally driven to, a lot of them are. In this area they seem to be walking to the dog parks. So, they're in the buildings, they're living in close proximity to this area. So, it's a need that is there, and if we didn't have an area designated for that use, they would be spread out in a larger area, and then we don't have as much control, we don't have the ability to target enforcement, which is what we do, the park is heavily enforced. So, we have staff there seven days a week, 12 hours a day, we have 24 -hour security there. So, it is the best situation that we can accommodate the dogs and the patrons, because another point to make, that area that we're requesting to be looked at, the review, which is a combination of 1 and 2, the coconuts do create a natural barrier for the dogs. It does demarcate a dividing point. The area that now houses the monument, the new feature, the lighthouse is not appropriate any more, because you did have a conflict between the cut walk and one of the perimeters. So, that is something to consider, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 60 because that's the main cut walk that goes towards the McCarther, all the way back along the Marina side, and that's, that's generally well used. So this has been a better situation, as far as usage, and as far as the denuding on the turf, the park is irrigated, we're on an irrigation schedule. We do understand that there are -- you know, we do have issues with urination, but we also have the irrigation system to naturalize that. It is a sandy soil. So, it does not stay in the soil, it will run through. MR. HAGOPIAN: The entire park is on -leash right now. I mean, you could bring a dog anywhere on- leash? MR. OLDENBURG: The rest of the park is on- leash. MR. HAGOPIAN: Through the entire park? MS. FERNANDEZ: Any time of day you can bring your dog to that park on a leash and they can poop and not get picked up. MR. HAGOPIAN: And then a block north, you have a complete area where a dog could go - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Unleashed. MR. HAGOPIAN: -- unleashed. MS. FERNANDEZ: Correct, 24/7. MR. HAGOPIAN: So we're not providing enough OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 61 for dog owners right now? MR. OLDENBURG: Well, in Washington, Washington Dog Park, Flamingo Dog Park, you're averaging 60, 70 dogs in there. I mean, there are a large -- there is a large population of dogs in Miami Beach right now. The owners, the demographics have changed. The owners are younger, they've got -- they've got the dogs, and really we're just addressing the need that's there. It's not going to go away. In fact, it's going to get larger. So, we're trying to accommodate as many people as we can, as everybody is a patron of the park. So that's MS. FERNANDEZ: And, again, I just want to re- emphasize, this issue was discussed at Committee and Commission, we had folks on all sides of the issue come to the publicly noticed meetings, express their opinion as to why we needed this, or did not need this. The Commission's decision at the time was to proceed until June, they extended the pilot until June, to give enough time for this to go through the DRB process, because when they decided to proceed, they said we'd like to look at the hedge option, and at which point we said, well, that would require Design Review Board, because you're creating now a physical barrier, blah, blah, which is why it's here, but the only reason it wasn't approved last time is that they decided they wanted to look at the OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 62 hedge as an option, and decided to defer the final conclusion until they could include within the ordinance the final location, but at the end of the day, there was much discussion on exactly that issue from other folks who said, hey, no hedge, no nothing, we already have it here. I mean, that was -- there was a lot of really good, diversity of opinion that was presented to the Commission, and at the end of the day the Commission's determination was to proceed with the pilot, to allow this to go through the DRB process for a recommendation from you as to, you know, potentially what you thought was the best location in light of the aesthetic issues and, you know, a hedge -- what your consideration was for a hedge based on those locations, and we would take your recommendation back to them, and then they will have to make a final decision and, again, publicly noticed, members of the community will come out. We hope, obviously, the resident who spoke earlier will come out and give her opinion, but in June we are scheduled to go back, because this is when the current pilot project expires. So our desire is to go back in May for first reading. In the event it gets approved at first reading, so it would be approved at the latest for the second reading in June, when the current pilot project expires, if that is the desire of the Commission. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 63 But ultimately all of this discussion, you know, a lot of comments, and concerns, and support, and opposed, you know, those folks came to the Commission, and we hope they come to the Commission again to discuss whatever the result of your recommendation is when we move forward with the project. MR. CARY: So, Hilda, to help the Board in making its decision, if the majority of the members of the Board feel very strongly that there should not be an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, they can say -- they can make a motion that said, if it is decided by the City Commission to approve an off -leash dog program in South Pointe Park, we would recommend, you know, Area X. However, the Design Review Board, for a variety of reasons, is strongly opposed to an off -leash dog area at South Pointe Park, is that the type of - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I will tell you, William, I'm not your attorney, so I can't give you guidance, but the designation of an off -leash area, with no physical anything, I don't know would have even -- would not have even come to the DRB, that's been in place. MR. CARY: Well, it's the hedge - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: So what the issue is, really - -- MR. CARY: It's the hedge that raises it to OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 64 the DRB. MS. FERNANDEZ: Right, the final location is important, and they wanted to get the input of the DRB, especially as it relates to the potential inclusion of a hedge but, you know, obviously we've designated an off -leash area for the last, over a year, based on the direction of the Commission, and they had one location, moved it to another location, but now as we're going to the phase where they're actually considering a permanent location, and this concept of a hedge came up, we really do -- you know, we really -- obviously it needs to come to this board if there is going to be a hedge, because that has a -- it changes the landscape, so to speak, of what's happening in that park. You know, certainly you all can give any recommendation, you know, certainly, but, you know, ultimately, you know, they're going to consider -- what they really wanted to get a recommendation from, was if there was going to be a hedge, which of these areas would make the best sense in terms of in this park. MR. CARY: Would it be appropriate if the board was to approve one area, to request the City put on that sign that says off -leash dog area, also something that says this area may not be used for picnics, or something of that nature? OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 65 Because I think it's a very real concern that everybody -- I mean, it's common sense, I mean, you don't want to sit down in an area in a picnic with your kids where dogs have been for the last, you know, several hours, so -- but it's just - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: You know, our concern would be, this is a public open space. The reason why it's not a designated dog park is precisely because it was intended to be some minimal use during the day off - leash. That area of the park can be used by anybody with a dog on a leash, like any other part of the park can be used by anybody with a dog on a leash. Someone can go with a dog on a leash, where the Art in Public Places piece is at, and have that dog poo and pee all over the place, and it's on leash, it would be as detrimental there as anyplace else in the park, but they could do that as long as the dog is on a leash. So really, we're talking about the distinction of a designated off -leash area, where, from a design perspective, in the park you believe is should be, especially if it's going to have a recommended hedge around -- a hedge around it, as has been suggested by some members of the Commission. They decided to proceed, because there was a recommendation by one Commissioner, in particular, about OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 66 the placement of a hedge, as a condition of approving the project moving forward, and the full Commission said at that point, well, then let's get the recommendation of the DRB before we make a final determination. It certainly isn't inappropriate to say Option 1 with a hedge, Option 2, yes, I guess a hedge, but we would recommend no hedge because there is already natural boundaries, which is consistent with what the Staff wrote, I think, in their report to you. MR. CARY: And, again, I would go back to my earlier guidance to the Board, is that whether there is going to be a dog -- off -leash dog area here or not is a City Commission policy decision, and that the Design Review Board should really limit its decision to the design issues associated with an off -leash dog area. MR. HAGOPIAN: Design and safety. Its about safety. That's what -- that's in our, you know, our description -- and function. MR. CARY: It is. MR. HAGOPIAN: -- of what we do. MR. CARY: It is in your evaluation. MR. HAGOPIAN: Appearance, aesthetics safety MR. CARY: It's public safety, yes. MR. HAGOPIAN: So - -- OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 67 MR. CARY: I think it's well within your purview to make a recommendation relative to safety. MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of the day, we either approve or we do not approve an application. I mean, if we approve it - -- MR. CARY: Well, the application requests that you approve a location if the City Commission makes a determination that it's correct to have an off -leash dog area here. MR. HAGOPIAN And what if you don't like any of the locations? MR. CARY: Maybe the City Attorney's Office would like to provide further guidance. I'm getting -- MR. SABA: Could we ask that there - -- MR. CARY: -- above my pay rate right now. MR. SABA: Could we ask that alternate locations be proposed? Because really those three locations, I think, are - -- MR. CARY: But is there an alternate location within South Pointe Park that you would - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: No, this would be the three alternate locations. We've tried to separate it from the children's playground area, which is not a fenced in children's area at this point. The other side of the hill is a dune area, which we wouldn't recommend. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 68 So really, in terms of public spaces, you have the two lawns, the east lawn and the west lawn, and you have the area where the public art piece is, and a sliver of land that's between the walkway, where the public art piece is, and apogee. We recommended that space, but that space, because of the landscape, ends up being even much smaller than 18,000 square feet. So, that was already shut down as a potential alternative, and that's what I'm referring to, is this area, this is the public art piece area. We attempted to do this area here. It's had additional plantings in the area, and as a result the square footage that was available was deemed too small, and was not considered as an alternative, not even as a temporary alternative when we were doing the construction here, which is why we ended up moving it to a portion of the west lawn, but when we've looked at all the other spaces, I mean, this is planting and dunes, and elevated berms, you know, this is the dune area, this is the children's playground area, this area gets heavy use from children playing and picnicking and what have you, people -- because the restrooms are on this side of the park for now. We may eventually have other restrooms on this side. So, you know, we did look at other alternatives. Unfortunately we could not find any OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 69 alternative that provided some reasonable level of space, based on what the expectations were from the dog owners in the area, where they wanted something at least comparable to that space, and that one, having very little landscaping, because it's a water's edge, was open green . space, and was, you know, very well used, and very -- you know, people liked it, while it was available, but think everybody else conceded that, you know, this works for them because they have this physical barrier with the elevated cut walk. You know, the issue now is whether just to do the half, or go all the way to the walkway, which are Options 1 and 2, that are being presented. MR. HAGOPIAN: Gary. MR. HELD: So, just to clarify a few jurisdictional questions that may have arisen. So first and foremost, appeals from the Design and Review Board go to the City Commission. So, the City Commission would ultimately have final say over any issue that's presented to you. Also, there are no structures that are being presented to you for approval. We're really just talking about a landscape and wall, whatever you want to call it, landscape, strip, hedge, and I don't know that your decision is really dispositive on that issue, particularly OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 70 given the nature of the appeal process. So really you're making a recommendation to the City Commission. They have the right to overrule you if an appeal were to be filed. So, you know, look at the application, give it your best decision. You know, whatever the majority decides, the administration will review it, and then they need to take it to the City Commission anyway, whether they take it as an original matter in their proprietary . capacity, or as an appeal, the City Commission will make the final decision. MR. CARY: That kind of makes it a lot easier, doesn't it? MR. HAGOPIAN: It only sounds a lot easier but -- Lilia, did you have something? MS. MEDINA: Just another question. Hilda, on Area 1, which is existing pilot program area, in the -- in our drawings we have a suggested hedge between Area 1 and Area 2. So, if one were to go only for Area 1, the existing area that's being used now, you had mentioned earlier that, you know, people use the whole area anyway, and that you had a sign in the middle saying, this is the, you know, dedicated area, but people just don't really -- so, in my mind, I had said earlier that I would go with OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 71 just Area 1, because I really feel strongly that the park should not be just kind of reserved for, you know, one kind of use, but it really doesn't make sense. If you're opposed to the hedge overall, which I think most us are because of the idea of the master plan, and how you want it open, then Area 1 by itself would necessitate a hedge of some sort. So it doesn't make sense. So really what's on our recommendation, or our consideration, is really Area 1 and 2 together, hedge or no hedge, you know, because I think all of us are in agreement that we don't want Area 3 as a consideration. MS. FERNANDEZ: And I think we also considered the fact that, you know, Option 1 represents literally creating a hedge in the middle of an open green space right now, which is a little odd from a design perspective, you know, because while there is a natural boundary at the walkway, there isn't one in the middle, that's just, we picked a location that more or less gave them sufficient square footage, and that's where we kind of demarcated a hedge. So it breaks out the, you know, the free and open lawn that's there right now, where you have an open vista. You know, if the decision is to put a hedge, ultimately, which the Commission needs to -- you know, OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 72 that was what they couldn't decide on, but if the decision is to do a hedge, you know, clearly it's going to at least be contiguous with the current walkways. So, that might present less of a physical, wow, you know, there is a hedge in the middle of a park in a green space. So, you know, that's why that option is there and, again, the Staff offers the, you know, the option of, you know, presenting it, okay, if you're going to do a hedge, maybe here, but we prefer no hedge, you know, all together, as an alternative, I think, that they put in the memo to you, but that's kind of where we're at with that, and we've talked about additional openings as well, again, to make sure people understand that this is intended to be a free and open use, it's not a dog park. So, were looking at, you know, whether we have additional openings to make it clear that this is an area that people are free and easy -- you know, willing to -- or able to access during the day, whenever they want. MR. CARY: I would make one -- like to make one quick suggestion. If it's the majority of members that feel strongly against having an off -leash area in South Pointe Park, I would not want to see the Design Review Board forfeit its opportunity to make a recommendation as to which of the three areas that are being considered would be the preferred location should a OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 73 dog, off -leash dog area be determined to be appropriate by the City Commission. I think you at least want to have that recommendation into the City Commission. Because it sounds to me like we're going to end up having an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, and I just don't want you to forfeit your opportunity, and then we find that we have an off -leash dog area around the lighthouse, you know, which I think would be the worst. MR. HAGOPIAN: So, hypothetically, if we select Area 2, which is the big piece, and we decide -- and we want the hedge, but we want the hedge to kind of meander through the trees, blah, blah, blah, and then you don't get four votes, what happens? MR. CARY: The motion fails. I mean - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: And then what happens? MR. CARY: Well - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: You still need to have a majority, right? I mean, you still have to have four. MR. HELD: That matter -- that would be your decision. Your decision would probably be appealed to the City Commission, because the application would still need to be approved before the work could commence, and the City Commission would make the final decision, but whatever your decision is, it would be reported, along with the appeal. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 74 Anyway, that's the way I see it. I don't know what Staff is contemplating, but -- so your sentiments on this will be presented to the City Commission in any event, because it is going to be presented at some point, and the only question is, in what form does it take, does it take the form of a decision by this board, or an appeal, or something else. So, feel free to decide whatever you think appropriate, given your best judgment. MR. MINAGORRI: You mentioned that the photo that was taken here is already after the park has been in use as an unleashed park for -- after six months. MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the photo that I have on the screen right now, that's basically since -- that usage since November. MR. MINAGORRI: Okay. MR. OLDENBURG: We're in -- right now we're in March. MR. MINAGORRI: So - -- MS. GRACIE: I physically took that photo - -- MR. OLDENBURG: This photo was recent. This is just a week ago. MR. MINAGORRI: So, in your opinion, because I think Seraj made a point, that with all the feces, and OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 75 all urination of the dogs, that the grass is going to suffer, and there is going to be a real difference between seeing other areas of grass and here, but I look at this picture, and this looks like it was just recently planted. Do you guys do something -- I mean, do people use this area now, besides as the dog area, to come and do picnics, does anybody complain of the smell, does anybody complain that they're sitting on a foul area? I mean, is that something that really is - I mean, are you guys doing something special to keep this at this level, or is it -- this is the way it's always going to be? maintained standard. residents, MR. OLDENBURG: Actually that park is -- the entire park is maintained at the same So, one issue, we have not had complaints of or patrons of the park, you know, wanting to visit that area and, of an odor, or any other negative complaint, except for some people that do not want the mix of the dogs with the people. I mean, there are people that don't want any dogs - -- MR. MINAGORRI: Right, but when you are on the off times, between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., do people other than -- that do not have dogs, do they actually go to this area and actually sit there, is there any OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 76 complaints at that time that this is not a safe place to be in? MR. OLDENBURG: No, we have not received that. I mean, people do sit underneath the trees, especially along, adjacent to Washington Avenue, they sit there, you know, around noon time, when there is shade, but the primary users of the park are using the eastern section of the park, east of the restaurant, that's the majority usage, and then the cut walk. So, there is usage on the west side. MR. MINAGORRI: So what is the usage of this area, other than the dog area? When the dogs are not there, what happens in this 1 and 2 parcels? MR. OLDENBURG: Compared to the rest of the park, it's very little used, as far as patrons. It may be transversed, but that sidewalk that's in your photo, is a major corridor where people walk through to the cut walk, but most of the people that enter to the park are already on the cut walk when they enter the park, they're coming along from the bayside, along the marina side, and they're also coming in from the north. So, there is a lot of cut walk users, and a lot of the park -- parking -- because of the parking situation in that park, there is not a lot of traffic that OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 77 people are driving to that park just to go to the park, they're going to the restaurant, and while they're at the restaurant, they're using the rest of the park, or they're driving to the park to use the playground and the water features, or they access the beach, but as far as patrons that are driving to that park, they're primarily coming from the local buildings that are adjacent to the park, and they're walking from the cut walk, they're walking from Washington, but primarily from the cut walk area. MS. FERNANDEZ: That is an excellent question. Again, the current and only restaurants in the park are adjacent to the east lawn, right next to the only concession in the park, Blissberry Yogurt, right next to the children's play area, right next to the splash ground. In the future, depending on what happens with the Washington Avenue entrance, if there is a decision made, as we proceed with dealing with the fountains, it may require the building of restrooms on the other side of the Washington Avenue entrance. At that point you might see more activity on that side of the park, but naturally speaking, the folks and the families that use it are using the areas adjacent to the tot lot, near the bathroom, next to the splash ground, and that is on the east lawn primarily. I'm not saying there's never activity there, but the majority of OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 78 the activity, family -wise or whatever, you tend to see closer to the restroom and splash ground and concession, which is the other side, the other lawn. MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I just had a brief conversation with the Park's director, Kevin Smith. The Board could make two separate motions. It could make one motion opposing an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, and it could make a second motion recommending that if an off -leash dog area is found to be appropriate by the City Commission, that the board would recommend Area, you know, X, Y or Z. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Well, maybe just -- we can maybe do a straw poll for the motion of which part of those three properties we feel would be best if you had to pick one of the three. MR. SABA: And if there should be a hedge or no hedge. MR. CARY: And then there is the hedge issue, yes. MR. MINAGORRI: That could be divided into two different motions, one selecting the area, and the other one is selecting where the hedges are. MR. CARY: One motion would be how the Board feels about having an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, period. The next motion would be, if it's OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 79 determined by the City Commission to have an off -leash dog program in South Pointe Park, which area the board would recommend, and what your position would be relative to it be optional, at the Parks Department's discretion, whether a hedge should be introduced, or whether you want to require a hedge, or whether you want to require no hedge. MR. HAGOPIAN: So that would be part of one motion. MS. HOUSEN: I. have one more question, before we get to that. Is there a reason Area 1 and 2 cannot be separated? Because one side of it is 18,000 feet, and one side of it is 14,000 feet. So, in total it's just under one acre. Could it not just be 1 or 2? Why do they have to be com -- it's, like, we have a choice of 3, or 1 and MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the useable space that you actually have in Site 1 would be inside that tree line, and there is, because of the extended tree plantings, the usable space is quite less than 18,000 square feet, and the combined area of usable space is very close to the 18,000. MS. HOUSEN: So it needs to be combined? MR. OLDENBURG: Yes. MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I mean, obviously OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 80 that's a decision the Commission will make. They wanted us to look at all of the options. Just to be clear, the original recommendation that was submitted by Staff, the Staff administrative recommendation, did not include a hedge. The hedge option was discussed as part of the presentation of the item by the Commission. It was introduced as an option for consideration of approval. But the original request was just leaving this as an off -leash area, without a hedge, which is how its been functioning for the last year, but this -- because of this additional request, as a result of the Commission discussion, and that's why we've submitted the DRB application but, you know, to Ms. Housen's point, yes, the concern that's been raised -- that has arisen now is that the area we had designated -- and by the way, when we went to the Commission and showed them the maps, and we said this is the area, because of the safety issues that resulted in us not being able to put signs in the middle of the open field, they had assumed that this open space, all the way to the walkway, was the approved off -leash area, and when we said, no, no, that wasn't what was the pilot, temporary area, they came to the Commission and said, then we have a concern, the useable space is now much smaller because of new plantings, we want you to OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 81 consider going all the way to Washington -- to this walkway. So, we were directed to present all three options to you, the original space that we thought was, everybody understood was the off -leash area, the pilot area, all the Washington Avenue and, of course, the original location, where we had placed it before the construction of the lighthouse. But, you know, again, the project moved forward. It's just a designated off -leash area. The concept of a hedge was something that was introduced as we were discussing the pilot, and whether the pilot should or shouldn't continue. MR. CARY: Okay. Okay. MR. HAGOPIAN: So as far as for straw poll purposes, we're looking at Area 1, which is the small part, or Area 2, which is the small part, plus the part next to the small part. Is there -- well, we're not looking at 3, I guess, because we don't want it near the public art, or is that an option that you think is better? MR. SABA: I mean, if it had to be there, I would -- if it had to be somewhere -- MR. HAGOPIAN: You would pick 3? MR. SABA: -- I would pick 3. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. MEDINA: Because it's away from the center. Page 82 MR. SABA: Its away, its off to the side, it doesn't divide that large grassy area, and it doesn't take that whole area away from people that want to, you know, use it. I mean, that's a large area. You can -- you know, if you wanted to, you know, for football, or baseball, or something, if somebody else wanted to play there, and you put a hedge down the middle of it, that really ruins it, and then if you have a bunch of dogs running around there, when somebody wants to use it, you know, even if it's just for a few hours of the day, they're not going to go there because there is going to be a lot of dogs there. So, you're excluding other users, at least during that time. MR. CARY: My concern, board members, is that the Design Review Board, you know, had held two public hearings relative to what the correct location is for the Art in Public Places piece, and you made that decision in light of the fact that there was never contemplated to be a dog park, an off -leash dog area there, and it would really be contradictory to identifying a location for a half a million dollar piece of public art, and then create an off -leash dog area around it that would limit public access to a piece of public art. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It's -- MR. SABA: Which is why there shouldn't be -- Page 83 MR. CARY: -- a serious concern. MR. SABA: -- a dog park at this park. MR. CARY: Well, again, you can make two separate motions, but - -- MR. LAVA: I'm Dennis Lava, Art in Public Places. Number one, a world class artist would have never even submitted a Public Art Sculpture for a dog park. MR. SABA: Look, sir, please, I'm not advocating for the dog park to be at -- MR. LAVA: Correct. MR. SABA: -- that location. We're being forced to make a decision here of one of three locations. Our hands -- I'm saying none of the locations, zero, none, not one. MR. LAVA: And I would also like to point out, when the artist designed that, if you notice the bottom puck of the sculpture, that's intended to be an area for people to sit and view the sunset, and I know everybody beats around the bush here, but nobody is going to be sitting in that, dog owner or not, when you're OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 84 sitting on feces and urine, because that's all cement. So, you're basically taking away one of the intents of the work of art, and that was the area selected. Nobody is going to be sitting there to be sitting in dog feces and urine, and that's not going to go away, because it's stuck on cement. MR. SABA: Which is why we shouldn't have this in this park at all. I mean that makes my point. But understand, we're being asked to make a decision -- we're being given three alternatives, none of which are suitable, but we're having to chose one of them. MR. LAVA: Well, I was just explaining the intent of that lower seating, which is for people to sit and view it, not to sit in feces, which will probably happen if you do do the dog park there, and it's also less space. support? MR. HAGOPIAN: Carol, which location do you MS. HOUSEN: I don't support any location, or shrubs. If that's the straw poll, I'd be willing to -- MR. HAGOPIAN: But if you had to? MS. HOUSEN: -- put it in a motion. MR. HAGOPIAN: Mickey? MR. MINAGORRI: I would support the Area 1 and 2. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 85 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the big space? MR. MINAGORRI: The big space, yes. MR. HAGOPIAN: Lilia? MS. MEDINA: Yes, I would support Area 1 and 2 combined, without a hedge, if we're going to go with an off -leash area, and I would also support not having an off -leash area at all. MR. HAGOPIAN: So the two motion concepts? So, she would support using the large area, which is actually called Area 2, with no hedges, as one motion, and then she would also make another motion that would say that she does not -- that she's does not support -- MS. MEDINA: An off -leash area at all. MR. HAGOPIAN: -- any off -leash area in the entire South Pointe Park. MS. MEDINA: And I certainly don't want to have any consideration for Area Number 3. I think that area, as you may recall when we voted on this, those members, when the Board who were on here, there was a concern for it to be a pusua (phonetic), and it was mentioned in our discussion, and I really feel that a world class piece of art, public art space is not conducive to having dogs going around them. MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, and I think for me its OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 86 important that we send a strong message to the Commission, at least, which is why I support the two motions, I don't think it should go anywhere here either, but if we can't just make a motion that we don't want the park here, and we have to make a second motion to pick a spot to put the park, or put the dog leash area, I guess that's what we have to do. MS. HOUSEN: Jason, can I make a motion that we vote against any, the shrubby plan that's been proposed, to not use it, and the second part of that motion, that we do not choose a location for off-leash dogs, could that be part of the motion? MR. CARY: Would you make that two separate motions, though? I think you want to make one motion that's very strong. MS. HOUSEN: Okay. Let me repeat that. MR. CARY: If everybody is opposed to putting in an off -leash dog area, I think you want to have a strong motion to reflect that specifically. MS. HOUSEN: Okay. The first motion is DRB File 22894, and the first motion is to not support the install -- installation of any hedge, excuse me, delineating any area. I think it would really harm the park. That's my first motion. MR. CARY: Is that motion - -- OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 87 MS. HOUSEN: That's my first motion. MR. CARY: Saying that there be no off -leash dog area in South Pointe? MS. HOUSEN: No, the first motion is no hedge, against the hedge, the hedge that's been proposed. MR. CARY: If there is an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, that there be no hedge, is that what you're saying? MS. HOUSEN: The first -- okay. Let me, let me revoke what I just said. The first motion should be that we don't have an off - leash dog park. MR. CARY: In South Pointe Park. MS. HOUSEN: In South Pointe Park, and can I not make it inclusive, that we do not - -- MR. CARY: But I would recommend that you make just a completely separate motion. MS. HOUSEN: Okay. That's my motion, that we do not support the off -leash dog park. MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second. MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor. UNIDENTIFIED: I. MS. HOUSEN: I. UNIDENTIFIED: I. UNIDENTIFIED: Nay. MR. HAGOPIAN: So it passes. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 88 MR. HELD: So, four to one in favor of the motion. Okay. Any - -- MS. HOUSEN: The Commission can undo it if they choose, and just, that's our recommendation. That's the first one. And the second one is that, to not delineate any areas with the hedging that's been proposed, any area. MR. HELD: So if there is a dog -- an off -leash dog area, that there is no hedges. MS. HOUSEN: That there be no hedges. MR. CARY: Do you -- does the board have a preference relative to which of the three areas? MS. HOUSEN: No, I don't support any of the areas. It's up to the board - -- MR. HELD: That would be a separate motion as well. MR. CARY: Again, I just don't want for the board to forfeit its opportunity to make a recommendation of - -- MR. HELD: Was there a second to - -- MS. HOUSEN: But the dogs can still be in the park. They just can't be off - leash, right, they still have the full park. We're not saying no dogs, just no off - leash. OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 89 MR. HELD: Okay. See if there is a second to this motion. MR. SABA: I'll second it. MR. HELD: Okay. Seraj, second. MR. CARY: Could you repeat the motion again, please? I'm still a little bit - -- MR. HELD: This is if there is a dog -- an off -leash area in the park, there should be no hedges, correct? M.S. HOUSEN: Yes, that's correct. Thank you. MR. HELD: You're welcome. MR. HAGOPIAN: Seraj seconded it. MR. CARY: Yes. MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor? GROUP: I. MR. HELD: So it was unanimous, five to zero. MS. HOUSEN: Okay. MR. HELD: Any recommendation on if there is an off -leash area, where it should go? MS. MEDINA: Yes, I would like to make a motion to recommend Area Number 2, which is the total of 34,000 square feet and, again, you know we've already voted on no hedges, so - -- OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 90 MR. HELD: So, if there is an off -leash area in South Pointe Park, it should go in Area - -- MS. MEDINA: Number 2. MR. MOONEY: Lilia, is that 1 - -- MR. HELD: Which includes Number 1? MR. MOONEY: Right. MR. HELD: Okay. MS. MEDINA: A combined area, total of 34,000 square feet. MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that. MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor? GROUP: I. MS. HOUSEN: Nay. UNIDENTIFIED: Nay. MR. HAGOPIAN: I. MR. HELD: So it's 3 to 2. MS. MEDINA: It passes. MR. HELD: Well, four votes, but that's the recommendation to the City Commission. MR. CARY: So you are forfeiting your opportunity to give advice to the City Commission relative to what -- which of the three areas - -- MR. HELD: No, they just did. William, they just did. You report a three to two vote on Area 2. MR. HAGOPIAN: The Commission already made OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 91 the great decision to put the park here in the first place. I mean, at this point you're telling us we don't have much effect here. I mean, it looks to me like this is going to happen, unless the Commission values what this Board has said, and - -- MR. CARY: Right, but if you have only three choices for dinner, and you have to eat, I would rather, at least, have a chance to choose which of those three I don't like, rather than ending up with something that I -- is going to make me sick. MS. HOUSEN: But, Mr. Cary, with due respect, this is still in a pilot program, and I think it's very important that the Commission hears what we feel about it, because it's still a pilot. It's not approved, is that correct? MR. CARY: That's correct. MS. HOUSEN: Right, it's a pilot program, and I think it's important. MR. CARY: Okay, but all I'm saying is that there should be no complaints from anyone that voted in opposition to selecting an area if we find that we have an off -leash dog area around the lighthouse, you have forfeited your opportunity to - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, does anybody want to make a motion to exclude the lighthouse location? Because OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 92 we can do that? MS. MEDINA: Sure, I'm make that motion. MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that. MS. MEDINA: The motion is to remove Option or Area Number 3 from any consideration for an off -leash area at the park. MR. HAGOPIAN: We have a second from Mickey. All those in favor? GROUP: I. MR. CARY: Seraj? MR. SABA: Can I sustain from voting? MR. HELD: No, there no abstaining, sorry. MR. HAGOPIAN: That's okay, we got um, you can say nay. MR. SABA: Nay. MR. HELD: Okay. So, it's four to one. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay? MR. HELD: Thank you. MR. HAGOPIAN: All right. Thank you. Thanks for your time. MS. MEDINA: Thank you very much. MR. CARY: Thank you, folks. I'm sorry that was so painful. I knew that it would be, and I didn't think it was going to be a 15 minute hearing. MR. HAGOPIAN: This is our last one, right? OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 93 MR. CARY: I mean, there is such compelling arguments on both sides. It's very difficult. Thank you for bearing with us. (Thereupon, the Meeting was concluded.) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 94 CERTIFICATION STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF MIAMI -DADE . I, Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR, Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that the foregoing Meeting was transcribed by me from a CD from a recording made on the date and at the place as stated in the caption hereto on page 1; that the foregoing computer -aided transcription is a true record to the best of my ability of said proceedings. WITNESS my hand this 28th day of March, 2012 CHERYL L. JENKINS, RPR Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large Commission #DD 920461 December 27, 2013 OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 1 (Pages 1 to 4) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 1 Page 3 1 1 MR. MOONEY: The next item is DRB File 2 CITY OF MIAMI BEACH 2 Number 22894. This is 1 Washington Avenue, South Pointe 3 4 DESIGN REVIEW BOARD 3 Park, and the City of Miami Beach is requesting design 5 4 review approval for an off -leash dog area within the 6 5 western portion of South Pointe Park. 7 6 At the direction of the Commission, two 8 7 options are being presented to the Design Review Board for 9 10 8 the creation of an off -leash dog area. We have members of 11 City of Miami Beach City Hall 9 the Public Works Department Stuff who will make the 3rd Floor, City Commission Chambers 10 presentation and better explain it. 12 1700 Convention Center Drive 11 Staff has recommended that Area 3, which Miami Beach, Florida 33139 12 would be the area proposed to be around the Art in Public 13 March 6, 2012 9:44 a.m. to 11:33 a.m. 13 Lighthouse sculpture not be permitted, and instead Areas 1 14 14 and 2 be the areas that are approved for the dog leash 15 15 area, and that if a hedge is required, that the hedge be 16 16 maintained at a height not to exceed 24 inches. 17 17 MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, just for the Item No. 22894 - South Pointe Park 18 benefit of our new member, the design for South Pointe 18 19 19 Park is probably one of the most unique, you know, 20 20 oceanfront park designs perhaps in the world. 21 21 On its east end, the park meets the 22 22 transition from an ocean marine environment, from a 23 23 natural environment into an urban environment. Transcribed from a CD By: 24 Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR 24 The master plan for the park was very 25 25 carefully designed by George Hargreaves Associates, one of Page 2 Page 4 1 APPEARANCES: 1 the most, kind of outstanding, you know, landscape 2 JASON HAGOPIAN, CHAIRMAN 2 designers in the United States, done many major parks 3 LILIA MEDINA 3 throughout the states, and in recognition of the fact that 4 4 Miami Beach is a city which doesn't have many hills, and 5 CAROL HOUSEN 5 doesn't have any high points, he created this whole SERAJ SABA 6 concept of a serpentine dune, to become an elevated 6 MICKEY MINAGORRI 7 walkway, to help make the transition from the natural 7 8 environment of the ocean and marine environment, into the JOHN OLDENBURG 8 City of Miami Beach Assistant 9 urban environment 9 Director of Parks & Recreation 10 So, on the east side you have the ocean. On RHONDA GRACIE 11 the south side you have the incredible, you know, 10 11 City of Miami Beach Landscape Architect HILDA FERNANDEZ you Government Cut, with, ou know 120, 150-foot, you know, City of Miami Beach Assistant City Manager 13 high cruise ships, you know, floating by. So people are 12 KEVIN SMITH 14 only not looking at the park from street level, they're 13 Director of Parks & Recreation 15 looking at it from above, they're looking down upon it. 14 WILLIAM CARY CMB Assistant Director of Planning Department 16 So, the whole design of the park was done in 15 THOMAS MOONEY 17 a very kind of comprehensive manner, to provide people the 16 CMB Preservation and Design Manager 18 ability to go up to 14 -feet in height above the park and 17 DENNIS AVA Art Staff to Art in Public Places 9 see vistas chan in ou meander alon th g g as you along the serpentine 18 20 trail. 0 20 2 ALSO PRESENT Jean Culick 21 At one oint you're looking out to the P g 21 Larry Weiman 22 north, when you first enter onto the beach, onto the 22 23 serpentine walk, from the Washington Avenue extension, 23 24 24 from the -- excuse me, from the -- yes, it is the 25 25 Washington Avenue -- no, it's the Ocean Drive extension, 1 (Pages 1 to 4) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 5 1 you're looking out, you know, to the north, along the 2 coastline, and then you switch back, and you're looking 3 out over -- you know, out over Fisher Island, then you're 4 looking back toward the City, and then you're looking down 5 toward Biscayne Bay, then you're looking back out to the 6 east, and then you descend back down to beach level again. 7 So, the park has different zones and 8 different areas, and the concept was to literally, you 9 know, create that transition, from the beach, to natural 10 dunes, to the formatted serpentine dune, and then the, 11 into the more multi - purpose use, gardens and meadows, as 12 we transition to the west, eventually to the point where 13 we arrive at the incredible new Obstinate Lighthouse, 14 which is another public art project approved by the Board, 15 by, you know, Tobias Rehberger, the very, you know, well 16 known, well established German sculpture, and so now the 17 Board has always been very concerned about preserving the 18 integrity of the park. 19 We had to do a redesign of the playground 20 area, because the playground equipment was not up to the 21 standard that it should have been. It began to 22 deteriorate very quickly, and that was completely 23 replaced. Rhonda Gracie, who is here, did the complete 24 redesign of that, and selected all the furnishings, and we 25 actually got in canopy structures to provide shade and Page 7 1 the Park's Department, and we feel that their, their basic 2 inclination to locate the dog, off -leash dog area to the 3 -- directly to the east of the Washington, Washington 4 Plaza, the extension area, either between that, and then 5 the one smaller walkway that bisects that kind of meadow 6 area of the park, is really the most logical, because it's 7 the most convenient to people that are coming in from 8 elsewhere in the area south of 5th, to walk their dogs in 9 the park, so it's readily, they can get in, they can get 10 out easily. 11 Ifs not the major destination areas. The 12 major destinations areas of the park are further to the 13 east. You're going to have -- the board has already 14 approved the construction of the new pier, as well. So 15 that the natural gravitation of traffic is to the -- you 16 know, toward the east in the park, except for those that 17 are coming around from the marina, or going to the marina 18 as they're going to look at the lighthouse in itself. So 19 we think that's really the logical location 20 The next issue is, you know, how do you 21 delineate or define what area is for off -leash purposes? 22 I think that we can look at that either way. I mean, 23 obviously Staffs preference would be to have no hedge, 24 whatever, because we don't want to create another design 25 element in the park, which was literally intended to be, Page 6 1 all, and that came out beautifully, and it works 2 beautifully with the architecture of the concession 3 building. 4 The Art in Public Places piece, the 5 Obstinate Lighthouse, is in the location that was 6 identified by the, by Hargreaves Consultants for the park, 7 and that was the approved location by the Design Review 8 Board as well. 9 Ironically, that ended up being the interim 10 location for the dog park, the off -leash dog area, and so 11 that's one of the three options that are there for your 12 consideration today. 13 Staff obviously believes that's the worst 14 possible option, because you really -- even though the dog 15 park is only going to be, you know, during certain hours 16 of the day, the off -leash area, we just don't feel it 17 would be at all appropriate to, you know, place a dog 18 park, off -leash dog park necessarily around a public art 19 piece, where you want to have children be able to come up 20 to it at all times and look up at those, you know, 21 incredible rainbow of colors painted on the undersides of 22 the cylinders that create that, that lighthouse feature. 23 And so in looking very carefully at how to 24 do this, how to create an off -leash dog area, you know, 25 for part-time use in the park, we worked very closely with Page 8 1 you know, very simple and smooth and straightforward, so 2 all the things that happen around the park are what really 3 . make the park, you know, such an executory experience, and 4 so were not recommending, we're not saying, yes, go, 5 ahead and approve a hedge. 6 What were saying is that if the Parks 7 Department finds that in order to delineate the area for 8 the off -leash dog area, if it's necessary to do that so 9 that owners of dogs know the area that they're limited to, 10 that's something that they can do in the future, if they 11 wish to do it. 12 So we've kind of left that option open, and 13 -- but we would absolutely recommend that if we do have 14 the hedge, that it should be no more than, kept at no more 15 than 24 inches in height, otherwise it's going to become a 16 major landscape feature, which we do not feel would be 17 appropriate in a park of this character. 18 So, we're recommending kind of the 19 combination of Site -- was it Site 2 and 3? Or 1 and 2, 20 it's 1 and 2, Pm sorry, 1 and 2 combined, rather than the 21 Lighthouse site. So that would be our suggestion to the 22 board, and Rhonda and John and Kevin can further, you 23 know, elaborate. 24 MR. SMITH: Good morning. For the record, 25 Kevin Smith, director of parks and Recreation. 2 (Pages 5 to 8) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 9 1 Thank you, William, for the introduction. 2 The item that we have brought before you 3 today was well explained by William. 4 Just a bit of back history. We've been 5 doing a pilot program now in South Pointe Park for an 6 off -leash area for about 18 months. It has worked very 7 successfully. The residents have come together and sort 8 of monitor their own. 9 The operational hours right now for South 10 Pointe off -leash area in the -- it's currently in the 11 west, in Area Number 2, that William was referencing, are 12 Monday through Friday, from sun -- I'm sorry, sunrise to 13 sun -- sunrise to 10:00 a.m. daily, and then from 5:00 -- 14 4:00 until 7:00 on Monday through Friday only, and the 15 remainder of the time, the area in question, or the areas 16 in question are remained open for public use, public -- 17 well, it's all public, but for public access and other 18 uses of the park. 19 So, particularly those hours are the 20 off -leash areas. The remainder of the time the dogs are 21 to be retained -- be maintained on leashes and are 22 controlled under the owners on leashes. We have security 23 in the park, Code Enforcement is in the park. Our staff 24 are in the park also. 25 So it is something that started out as a Page 1 I 1 designed as a sea wall. 2 So, by doing that, we increase the area for 3 the dog owners, almost double it. However, there is a lot 4 of trees there. So the area that the dogs run in is 5 actually within the grassy area inside of the treeline, so 6 that they don't end up -- they tend to want to loop when 7 they're running, and this way it will prevent them from, 8 like, actually running and banging into some of the trees 9 and knocking themselves out. 10 So, the actual area -- I have seen it 11 happen. The actual area will be closer; when you discount 12 those trees to, the actual area that they currently have, 13 which is about 18, 1900 square feet, even though 14 technically if you include the tree area it's much larger. 15 Also by allowing us to extend it to those 16 natural barriers, we believe that if -- we would not 17 necessarily need a hedge, but if needed, it would be a 18 very low lying hedge, it would be -- Ilex Schilling 19 (phonetic) would be our recommendation, which is a Florida 20 native shrub. It is highly salt tolerant. It grows 21 extremely slow. It can handle extreme conditions, the 22 high PH, and we would look at rec, you know, maintaining 23 that at about 24 inches or so. 24 • At full maturity, which takes about 10 25 years, it would get to about 36 inches in height, at the Page 10 1 test program and has worked out very effectively. So, 2 just as a little bit of history in that area. So, to help 3 you make your decisions. 4 MR. CARY: Thank you. 5 MS. GRACIE: Good morning. 6 MR. CARY: Good morning. 7 MS. GRACIE: Rhonda Gracie with Parks and 8 Recreation. 9 The three sites initially, and I agree with 10 Staff with regard to the lighthouse location, which is on 11 Site Number 3, the reason that was included in the 12 beginning was because that was the original site for the 13 pilot program initially, and that kind of set the tone as 14 to the square footage for the off -leash area. 15 That site was relocated to Area Number 1, 16 when the construction of the lighthouse was done. So we 17 were asked to present the three locations, and then we've 18 included Area 2, which essentially is Area 1, and 19 extending that to the sidewalk, the cut area. Opposed to 20 having a division down the middle of that grassy area, we 21 wanted to created natural boundaries using the existing 22 sidewalk that you can see, that's to the east, along with 23 the partial serpentine to the north, and then of course 24 you have the Washington Avenue Plaza to the west, and then 25 the -- along Government Cut, where it's a raised wall and Page 12 1 maximum. It takes to sheering, so it would be easy for us 2 to maintain at a lower level, if that were needed at a 3 later time. 4 So, we personally prefer taking it to that 5 sidewalk. If we end up with just using and dividing and 6 going with Area 1, then I believe that you would end up 7 needing some kind of division down the middle of the 8 grassy area to kind of de -mark where that location is, and 9 we'd prefer not to have that line through the middle of 10 the turf area. 11 MS. FERNANDEZ: If I may, Chair Members of 12 the Commission -- of the Committee? Hilda Fernandez from 13 the City Managers Office. 14 The off -leash program has been working now a 15 little over a year, relatively successfully with 16 enforcement at South Pointe Park. 17 Just to clarify, as William has, this is not 18 a designated dog park. Dog parks are fenced in 19 environments. We have five of those throughout the city, 20 six if you count the smaller one on Collins Avenue. This 21 is a designated off -leash area. So, it's very important 22 for us that it is clear, that the majority of the time 23 this area is available for any other type of use. 24 The idea of including a hedge around that 25 area was the Commission's suggestion during a public 3 (Pages 9 to 12) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 13 1 discussion of the pilot project, and that is why that item 2 is before you today. 3 If we had continued, obviously, without the 4 need for a hedge, we wouldn't be here before you today, 5 but at the end of the day there was a request, during one 6 of the Commission meetings, that we consider placing a 7 hedge. We explained that the placement of the hedge would 8 require DRB consideration, and that is why we are here 9 today. 10 The Commission also did not give us specific 11 direction as to which of the three they preferred. They 12 said bring it to the DRB, and have the DRB suggest, based 13 on the possibility of a hedge, et cetera, which of the 14 three locations would be preferable. 15 So we are here today asking for your 16 consideration of, if there was going to be a hedge, what 17 would be the preferable location, or what would be the 18 preferable location as a whole. 19 This would go back to our Commission for 20 them to consider your recommendation, in terms of the 21 potential location, as the Commission has to consider 22 whether to make this a permanent program at South Pointe 23 Park. 24 What is very important for us is whatever, 25 if there is a decision to put a hedge, and we can come Page 15 1 you'd like to ask him anything. 2 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you. 3 Is there anybody from the public that wishes 4 to speak on this application? 5 MS. CULICK: Yes, I do. 6 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Please approach the 7 microphone. State your name and address. 8 MS. CULICK: Hello. My name is Jean Culick 9 (phonetic). I live at 400 South Pointe Drive. I'm a 10 13 -year resident, and I can explain to you, I walk daily 11 in the park, and I love this park. I saw it constructed, 12 and I'm afraid that I have to dispute the facts that have 13 been presented. 14 The multiple use of the park has been 15 seriously unbalanced by the extension, especially the 16 December extension of sunset to 10:00 a.m., and 4 :00 p.m. 17 to 7:00 p.m. 18 You are fully aware that in this climate, 19 that -- those are the best hours of the day. People, 20 elderly people, the Orthodox community nearby, used to go 21 and sit under the trees in the afternoon, read their 22 books, people from the nursing homes were wheeled out by 23 the attendants or their relatives, young couples, 24 students, nannies teaching little children how to walk on 25 the grass, which is a soft fall for the babies, all these Page 14 1 back with an explanation that it might not be necessary 2 with Option 2 to put a hedge, which is the larger west 3 lawn, clearly, you know, the expectation would be, if 4 there is a hedge, that it be done in such a way that makes 5 it clear and obvious that the general public can access 6 this space at any time, whether there are dogs there 7 during the off -leash hours, or even during the other hours 8 of the day, not create a barrier that makes it seem as if 9 it's a fenced in area, because that's not what it's 10 intended to be, which is why it's recommended to be a low 11 hedge, that there be multiple openings around the hedge, 12 to invite people to go into the space during the day, when 13 that is not an off -leash area, and they can certainly go 14 in the space when it is an off -leash area if they want to, 15 but that is one of the concerns we had, to continue to 16 make sure everyone understood this is intended to be an 17 off -leash area, not an enclosed dog park, but rather an 18 amenity to that entire park, and that entire community. 19 Thank you very much for your consideration 20 today. 21 MR. CARY: Also, Mr. Chairman, Dennis Lava 22 (phonetic) is here today. Dennis is Staff to the Art in 23 Public Places Committee, and so if you have any questions 24 relative to the site that surrounds the Art in Public 25 Places, the Obstinate Lighthouse, Dennis is available, if Page 16 1 people have been driven away by the heavy pollution caused 2 by this influx of 50, 60 dogs, over six hours a day, 3 urinating, polluting the ground. 4 In effect, the weekend hours, and those 5 other non - restricted hours are a danger to the public, 6 because in this climate, with no rain, the ureal salts 7 clings to the soil, and to the grass, and the vestiges of 8 the feces, obviously, and this is dangerous. 9 I would like you to put up some notices to 10 say to people, do not use, do not go into that area. It 11 is heartbreaking for me to see people having a birthday, 12 spread out, and sitting on that grass, which is so heavily 13 polluted. I have just seen, just before that, the dogs 14 running there. 15 It is a really grave situation, on top of 16 which the dog owners are definitely not self - policing. 17 They are disdainful and shabbily rude to the security 18 guards, who are doing an impossible job. 19 There is no way to delineate these 20 boundaries, there is no way. The dog owners' attitude, 21 and this is the least rude one I have heard is, what's the 22 difference? They have been unleashing as soon as they 23 enter by Washington Avenue, or by Continuum, or by the 24 Beach Road. 25 As for the marina, they're coming in from 4 (Pages 13 to 16) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 17 1 there, and they consider the Lighthouse area as still an 2 off -leash park. 3 If any member of the public, or a security 4 guard said, that dog should be on a leash, as I did to a 5 young man, whose dog -- he was talking on the phone, the 6 dog had defecated by the rocks, where all the brides, and 7 their quinces, and the tourists take pictures, it's the 8 heaviest usage in the evenings, 4:00 to 7:00, sunset time, 9 tourists are coming to photograph, there is throngs of 10 people, I said to him, are you aware -- he was furious 11 with me, and gave me a mouthful. 12 So, you know, it sounds wonderful in theory, 13 but this is not appropriate for a world class park, which 14 is so beautiful, has varied walks. The dog owners should, 15 in fact, be walking their dogs. In fact, they're sitting 16 on the berm, that lovely little hilly area, and I dispute 17 that that is not a main entrance, because parents and 18 little kids come running in, and because there is.a lack 19 of hills, they run up there and they tumble down. I mean, 20 this is such a delight to see, I see it from my balcony, I 21 have an overview of this, a grandstand view. You are all 22 welcome to come and have a drink and watch this if you 23 don't want to go to the park, but it is, it is really sad 24 to see how this park will deteriorate. 25 The Park's Department does a brilliant job, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 19 taken to the berms, they're sitting there with their backs to the cars, the dogs are running over the hills, into the shrubberies, round, back again, and what's more, these big dogs and little dogs are fighting. We are going to have the most grotesque accidents, a mixture of cars, little babies, all these big and small dogs. It is really ridiculous that you are considering giving over this wonderful vista of green lawns and coconut plantations that were in visage, as Mr. Cary explained so well, by this well classed architect, and you're giving it over, the most expensive pieces of real estate. 33139, didn't they just say that was the top ten ZIP codes in the country, we're giving it over to the dogs. You will be a laughing stock. That park will not be a pleasant place. Thank you very much for listening to me. I'm not used to talking to the public, but I hope I've put my point here. MR. CARY: Thank you for your comments. Is there anybody else that would like to speak on this application? Please approach the microphone, and state your name and address. MR. WEIMAN: Good morning. My name is Larry Weiman (phonetic). I'm a resident at 50 South Page 18 1 they are trying so hard, and they've maintained it 2 beautifully, but we know that the urine -- yes, let's give 3 them applause, but the urine -- yeah -- but the urine, the 4 urine, as anybody who has had a lawn, and whose neighbor's 5 dog uses it regularly, stains brown. So, we're going to 6 have a dust bowl there. 7 It is really a very serious situation, and 8 it is unbalanced, and you cannot possibly hope to cope 9 with four -- two -foot hedges, two -foot hedges. They're 10 Great Danes, they're standard Poodles, they're Alsatians, 11 there are big Labradors. I've seen two big Labradors 12 streaking out from that shrubby area behind the berms, and 13 the lady had a long dress, and she was trying to control 14 those two dogs. They were out by the Smith & Wollensky 15 drop. It is very dangerous. The only good thing about 16 the lighthouse area, was that it was furthest away from 17 the cars. 18 Now, the berm, and the area where all these 19 dogs are scurrying around, is 30 yards, those shrubberies, 20 the hedge you're talking about is 30 yards away from the 21 main roadway. The dogs are out of control. 22 The owners are sitting on the berm, chatting 23 with each other, and there is a snobbery between the dog 24 owners, because most of them don't want their dogs to mix 25 with the main lawn users. So they're the ones who have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 20 Pointe, and I'm also on the board of the SoBe K -9 organization, and we were involved with the Parks Department, and with the counsel in the implementation and the operation of the program. I'm not sure that this is the appropriate forum to be talking about the nature of the dog park being there or not, I'm not sure that's what's before us today. I think it's more an issue of location of the park, and design of the hedge, if there is to be a hedge. From the standpoint -- so, to address those first, from the standpoint of the majority of the dog owners, from my personal standpoint, the location that Parks has suggested, and sort of the extension of the Area 2, away from the lighthouse, we think is correct, we think it's the best practical place for it to be. The lighthouse area has come out extraordinarily well, and as someone who is in the park four or five times a day, I can tell you it really is one of the great pieces of urban park design, the sculpture is wonderful, and the use of that area now has grown, so that I don't think it would be appropriate to relocate the dogs back there. The success of these dog off -leash programs is generally a question of trying to minimize the contact between the dogs and the other users of the park, and some 5 (Pages 17 to 20) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 21 1 of the issues you just heard described, I think are very 2 much the exception to the rule, and Parks, and I think 3 Hilda can verify, that the level of complaint has fallen 4 dramatically from the initial operation of the pilot 5 program, and I think even further since we've relocated to 6 that middle point, because there is a natural separation 7 with the edge of the cut walk, and with the walks that 8 surround it, and that separation tends to minimize 9 opportunities for passersby, people on bicycles, people on 10 skateboards, mothers with children, to come in contact 11 with the dogs, and while .a 24 -inch hedge is not going to 12 contain a Great Dane, they do actually, if you're there, 13 and I am twice a day, if you're there, the dogs do 14 actually obey and stay contained within those boundaries, 15 even that little, I guess, 18- inches, or 20- inches, that 16 the cut walk is raised up over the grass area, tends to 17 keep the dogs in boundary. 18 Now, while there are clearly cases where the 19 dogs leave the boundary and come back, or leave the 20 boundary and are called back, by and large, if you've been 21 there and seen the operation of it, it's become a 22 tremendous community event, a tremendous source of people 23 coming together, neighbors knowing each other. 24 There are, in fact, 40 or 50 dogs at any 25 given time in the evening, and it really has been a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 23 So, in summary, the dog owners themselves are very happy to keep it where it is. I don't believe it should be relocated back to the lighthouse either, and if the board is amenable to the placement of the shrubbery, at the request of a couple of the Commissioners, we have no objections to that, and think that the design that Parks has put forward is fine. Thank you. MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you for your comments. MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I should just clarify for the board, that the City Commission, of course, has to take into consideration the needs of all of the users of the park, and the issue of whether there should or should not be an off -leash area in the park is a policy decision by the City Commission, not by this board, and what this board has been requested to look at is what, of the three areas that have been identified, are the best areas for the off -leash dog area, and what the -- the configuration, or conditions of that area should be. It's not this Board's responsibility to make a policy as to whether or not there can be, and you can see there are very excellent and passionate arguments on both sides. There, you know, always will be, and both speakers have spoken brilliantly in representing their own perspectives. Page 22 1 tremendous use of the park, tremendous community, at a 2 time when there are plenty of areas of the park for people 3 to do other things. It's one of many grass and public 4 areas there. 5 We've worked closely with the SoBe and 6 Mothers Committee, and they don't have any objections to 7 it. SoBe, itself, hasn't had any objections to the way 8 it's operating, because there is plenty of opportunity for 9 people to migrate over to the playground, or to the other 10 open grass areas between the playground and the cut, and 11 so from an operational standpoint, I think it's working 12 quite a bit better than you would have inferred from the 13 prior comments, and the enforcement matters are things 14 that we, as dog owners, do take strongly, we do try to 15 self - police our other members. 16 One does not observe any large amount of 17 unclean dog waste there. The park is sprinkled, so I 18 imagine that some of the problems that you just heard 19 alleged about the dog urine there, are not really an 20 issue, and even though the grass is taking use from the 21 dogs running, and from people using it, from my 22 observation ifs no different than the use that the grass 23 is taking on the other side, where it's used by people 24 picnicking, and soccer, and the other activities that go 25 on in the park. Page 24 1 MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of this item, 2 we will have to pick Area 1, 2 or 3, that's what you're 3 telling me? 4 MR. CARY: You'll have to select one of the 5 three areas, or the combination of 1 and 2, which is the 6 recommendation of the Staff, and I think which is the area 7 that the Parks Department supports, because it's 8 delineated by the cut walk, which is 16- inches above the 9 meadow area, and as you said, that was a specific design 10 dementia that was selected, so that you could have seating 11 along the -- along the cut walk, to look both out to the 12 cut, and look into the meadow area, and then the three 13 walkways would define the other three sides. 14 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. We will do our best to 15 keep that in consideration. 16 It's a little -- I mean, for me, personally, 17 it's going to be a little bit tricky, because I see all 18 the issues that both sides have been talking about, and 19 I'll talk a little bit about it when it's my turn to 20 speak, but I'd like to hear from my other board members. 21 Okay. Carol. 22 MS. HOUSEN: I have one question of Staff, 23 and I do understand, thank you, Mr. Cary for clarifying 24 our position, that we're here to help select the proper 25 location, and approve the shrubbery that's going over it, 6 (Pages 21 to 24) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 25 1 but I have a question of Staff. What's the total acreage 2 of South Pointe Park? 3 MR. CARY: Is it 18 acres? 4 MS. FERNANDEZ: I think it's 22 acres. 5 MR. CARY: 22 acres? 6 MS. FERNANDEZ: But of course you've got the 7 areas that are dunes and you've got the buildings. 8 MS. HOUSEN: Right, right. No, because I 9 totaled up the three areas, which came up to 70,000 square 10 feet, which is just under 1.2 acres of proposal off -leash 11 dogs. 12 MS. FERNANDEZ: And we wouldn't recommend 13 all three. We're just looking for one area in particular. 14 MS. HOUSEN: Right. Okay. No, no, that was 15 my question. I wasn't sure of the total of the park. 16 Well, I would never think to recommend all 17 three, and never would I put it by the public art, which 18 is the lighthouse, but I think my personal opinion on 1 19 and 2, is just to take into consideration, it should be 20 delineated whether it be shrubby or a fence, only because 21 it's not a dog park, and elderly people, and children -- I 22 go out with grandchildren, one is horrified of dogs, the 23 amount of people that we're loosing in the park, and I'm 24 an animal supporter, but I think that we need to not be 25 taking away the prime of our park for the dogs. I think Page 27 1 the Government Cut, but actually be on the edge of the 2 water there. So I think that area should not even be 3 considered. 4 I understand the rationale for having a 5 hedge now. At first I thought, well, you know, the 6 Hargreaves original plan, the master plan for the park was 7 to keep it as open as possible, but if there are issues 8 from the public, as far as folks not containing their 9 dogs, maybe -- I don't know if the hedge is going to work, 10 frankly, but I think, if anything, there is some 11 delineation that would help keep the dogs in the area. 12 I would really want to know a little bit 13 more from the Parks Department, the monitoring and the 14 compliance, because you said that, you know, things have 15 been working well, but on the other hand we hear from the 16 public otherwise. 17 I think Area Number 1, which is where it's 18 been used now as the pilot area, would be, for me, 19 personally the preferred area. It's 18,000 square feet. 20 I. don't know how that compares to, even though this is not 21 a bark park, dog park, the other seven parks that exist in 22 the area, how big are they in comparison to Area Number 1, 23 at 18,000 square feet, are they typically about the same 24 size? 25 MS. GRACIE: Most the areas within South Page 26 1 either designate part of it for dogs, that's not our 2 opinion here, I mean, it's not our position to make that 3 selection, but that needs to be considered in choosing the 4 one area of the off - leash, because it could be an unsafe 5 situation to an elderly or a child, and I think the City 6 needs to take that into consideration. It's just my point 7 of it, but I would never think to put it anywhere near 8 Area 3, that's prime property, and I think it should be 9 the people's place to share it. That's my opinion. 10 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you, Carol. 11 MS. MEDINA: Well, thank you for the 12 presentation. It is a tricky decision, in that there is a 13 high demand for an off -leash area, and there are many 14 apartment buildings there, high density condominiums. You 15 know, as a person who had a white Shepard, I am, you know, 16 in support of the use, but on the other hand, there is 17 also the issues that have been brought up by the public, 18 and so- called snobbery, and sort of non - compliance of, you 19 know, due diligence, as far as cleaning up and restricting 20 your dogs to the area. 21 First of all, I think Area Number 3 is 22 definitely off for consideration. I mean, I was there the 23 other day, it's a -- the Tubias artwork, public artwork is 24 just awesome at night. During the day you have the FEC -- 25 you have the slip next door, where you can watch not only Page 28 1 Beach dog park per dog run are approximately that. We 2 have at Flamingo Park, we have two dog run areas, they're 3 about 20,000 square feet each. At this particular point 4 in time, they're a little bit smaller before we did the 5 expansion. At the RDA, which is right off of Collins 6 Avenue and 2nd, that space is significantly smaller, it's 7 about 6,000 square feet and it crosses the street at 8 Washington Avenue, at the dog park there at 2nd and 9 Washington, that's about 24,000 square feet. So, it's a 10 bit more. 11 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I think that - -- 12 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, I was going to say, 13 just if I may, the -- in our research we found that a 14 really usable dog park is approximately one acre, or a 15 little bit more, and as a matter of fact, we just opened a 16 -- or are finishing up North Shore open space, and it's 17 about that size, and we found -- what we've also noticed 18 is since we opened up both areas, because of the trees 19 that are in the western section of -- sort of in Area 20 Number 1, having both sections open is basically giving 21 you almost the square footage of the 18,000, when you 22 combine them, that has open space for the dogs to run, and 23 we have also found that having the open space area, and 24 expanding it a bit, it just naturally reduces the wear and 25 tear on one section. So, having it a bit more spread 7 (Pages 25 to 28) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 29 1 apart, or open has also been useable, and useful to us as 2 far as a maintenance issue. 3 MS. MEDINA: So as far as the existing trees 4 there, you're not counting in, if you're saying 18,000 5 with Area 1 and 2, you're not counting in then that area 6 where the plan -- the landscape exists, as not usable, if 7 you will, because that's where the dogs would not go, is 8 that what you're saying? 9 MR. SMITH: Well, I think what we're saying 10 is that when we have observed the dogs, and the way that 11 they're using the area now, they tend -- dogs tend to want 12 to open -- get into an open run area. They may run 13 through the trees and, you know, but more to the point, 14 when an owner is throwing the ball, or if the dogs are 15 playing and chasing each other, they will tend to go into 16 the open spaces, where they can get some you know, some 17 directional run, rather than kind of going in circles or 18 around the trees. 19 So, although the trees are nice to have, and 20 there is shade, and it's a nice environment for the -- but 21 the time that the dog owners are using that off-leash 22 area, and I do want to stress that, there is -- there are 23 times, it's not as if this is an exclusive area just for 24 the dog owners, the park is used predominately throughout 25 the day by a lot of different people, and visited Page 31 1 MS. GRACIE: Okay. So what we're talking 2 about, in Area 1 in the aerial here, Area 1 is half of 3 this lawn. Area 2 would be the entire lawn area. 4 So, as you can see, in this area, you don't 5 have as many trees that are now there. So, the area, the 6 land mass in size is significantly smaller, but the total 7 square footage includes those tree areas. 8 MS. MEDINA: Excuse me, so the total square 9 footage for Area 1 -- this sheet that we have here LA 02 10 says that Area 1 is 18,000, right? 11 MS. GRACIE: Correct, Area 1 is 12 approximately 18,000 square feet, including the tree 13 areas. Area 2 would be Area 1, plus the area to the west 14 of it, taking it all the way to the sidewalk, that is a 15 combined area of 34,000 square. feet. That does include 16 the tree lined area. 17 As Kevin had mentioned earlier, the AKA 18 recommends individual dog run areas in a dog park, 19 enclosed dog park to be approximately one half acre to one 20 acre. The reason being is that it makes it .a little bit 21 easier for maintenance, a little less wear and tear. It 22 also is a recommended size for multiple dogs, as well as 23 being an area that is where dog owners can keep their 24 animals under both visual and voice commands, without them 25 getting too far ahead of them. You don't want it too Page 30 1 throughout the day by a lot of different folks, and it's 2 not just the dog owners that go in that area. They may be 3 in that area when the times permit it. However, they are 4 not there when the times are not -- you know, they are not 5 specified to do so. 6 MS. MEDINA: And the hours available here is 7 really not an issue here as well, right? We're not --- 8 MR. SMITH: No, that's a policy that's 9 established by the City Commission. 10 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I still think Area 11 Number 1, which has been proven to be effective, according 12 to the Parks Department, would be my preferred 13 recommendation, and with a hedge to define it somewhat. 14 MR. SMITH: If I may be clear, what we are 15 saying has proven to be effective. If you're calling 16 Area 1 the two pieces --- 17 MS. MEDINA: No, no, Area 1 -- 18 MR. SMITH: You're talking about just the 19 west section? 20 MS. MEDINA: Right. 21 MR. CARY: Maybe, it might help if Rhonda, 22 could you joint point it out on the aerial photograph, 23 what Area 1 would be? 24 You probably need the travelling mike, I'm 25 sorry. If somebody can pass it to you. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 32 large, and you don't it want it too small. Thank you. MR. MINAGORRI: I see here that these hedges, proposed hedges that, you say that it would take 10 years for them to grow to 36 inches, but we want to maintain them at 24 inches. What's the width of these hedges? Because I see the proposal having, not just one straight line of hedges but, like, multiple. So, what would be the total width of hedges that we would have? MS. GRACIE: It would end up being about two and a half to three foot wide, that includes alittle bit of a boundary for mulch on both sides, and for edging. MR. MINAGORRI: But looking at--- MS. GRACIE: And the hedge, yes, it would be staggered rows. MR. MINAGORRI: So then each of the hedges would be two, to two and a half feet wide. So, we would have like six or seven feet? MS. GRACIE: No, you would have a maximum of three feet. They're staggered --- MR. MINAGORRI: Looking at the photo on LA 02, and looking at your drawings, where you would have, what seems to be two hedges, what is the width of each of those hedges? Because they look to be a lot wider than they are higher. 8 (Pages 29 to 32) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 33 1 MS. GRACIE: It's a double stagger row. The 2 two rows in width would be three foot. Showing them at 18 3 inches, at about the maturity level, they may get a little 4 bit bigger, that bed line would expand at a later time. 5 When we first install them, they will end up being 6 significantly smaller. 7 MR. MINAGORRI: So we're talking about -- 8 MS. GRACIE: So we're talking about - -- 9 MR. MINAGORRI: -- 24 inch high by about -- 10 MS. GRACIE: Three feet. 11 MR. MINAGORRI: -- three feet. 12 MS. GRACIE: But in the beginning, we will 13 not even be able to fmd plant material greater than one 14 by one. If we're lucky, we might fmd some plant material 15 18 by 18. It's extremely expensive, because of the slow 16 rate. So initially you're not going to have very much 17 space at all right there. 18 MR. MINAGORRI: So -- 19 MS. GRACIE: It's planned availability. 20 MR. MINAGORRI:. -- on the north side, how 21 come there is no hedges on that north side? Is there, 22 like, a wall? 23 MS. GRACIE: We have the raise - -- 24 MR. MINAGORRI: The raise-- - 25 MS. GRACIE: No, that's the south side, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 35 My question is, it's normal for these animals to stay within a contained area, even if they're off a leash. Is that something that the gentleman from the AKA knows? I think you mentioned something, that even though we're going to have these openings, how do you really prevent an animal from just not running out of the - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Hilda Fernandez, again, from the City Managers Office. Frankly we can't prevent it, and I think that was one of the concerns that prompted the Commission to look at the concept of a hedge. When the site was the area around the public art piece, you had some natural barriers, you had the bay walk on one side, a walkway on the one side, another walkway where the boat basin is at, and then you had the rocks, so there was a natural barrier. We have signs, we do have signs, plenty of signs on the edge of that that says off -leash hours, when and how and what have you, and the dog owners would generally make sure that their dogs remained within those physical, natural physical barriers, which was in this case just walkways, and on one side Government Cut. When the decision was made to relocate, we did something a little bit strange, because really we only Page 34 1 that's the Government Cut side, and that's where you 2 already have that 16 inch raise, Government Cut walk. 3 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay. 4 MS. GRACIE: I can show that in the 5 photograph, in the one that I'm showing right now -- 6 MR. MINAGORRI: Yes, I see it, yes. 7 MS. GRACIE: -- you can see how many trees 8 there actually, and palms that are in that area. 9 MR. MINAGORRI: I see it here. 10 MS. GRACIE: And then you can kind of see in 11 this photograph here, that raised seat wall, we feel that 12 that creates that actual barrier, and that a -- right, and 13 that's from that sidewalk edge, you see that shadow, that 14 creates that natural barrier, that would be about the 15 height of what the shrubs will end up being, for the 16 majority of the life span, they will eventually get to 17 about 24, but that's going to be quite some time down the 18 road -- 19 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay. 20 MS. GRACIE: -- before they'll reach that 21 maturity level. 22 MR. MINAGORRI: Two quick questions. So 23 we're keeping the landscaping intact, with all the palm 24 trees. We're just adding hedges, and then I see here, 25 like, three entrances. Page 36 1 had three demarcated areas that we could demarcate in the 2 west lawn. When we cut that west lawn in half, we had to 3 put a sign up, which was very awkward and, frankly, became 4 a safety issue. 5 So people naturally, instead of just using 6 that little corner, half of that section, started using 7 the entire section, because we didn't want to put a sign 8 in the middle of a park that people could run into. So we 9 had signs on the other areas, but they were really using 10 that entire area. 11 Does that mean that dogs -- and I have been 12 there -- that dogs don't jump up on the cut walk 13 momentarily or whatever, responsible dog owners take care 14 of their pets, and we see that everywhere. We have plenty 15 of dog parks in our City, and we continue to get 16 complaints about people letting their dogs loose, with a 17 dog park in the park, at the time they get out of the car, 18 even though they could just walk 50 feet and put the dog 19 in a, you know, in an actual dog park, they do that now. 20 So, what we find is, generally, that the dog 21 owners are -- when there is a physical barrier, such as 22 whether it's a natural physical barrier, or in this case a 23 suggestion of a hedge, they tend to keep their dogs in 24 there, but at the end of the day, dogs don't read signs, 25 they're going to go wherever they're going to go. It's up 9 (Pages 33 to 36) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 37 1 to really the dog owners to figure out, hey, my dog isn't 2 where he's supposed to be. 3 We do do active enforcement at the park, not 4 just during the off -leash hours. We go during the day to 5 make sure that they're not off -leash in the off -leash 6 area. They cannot be off -leash at 2:00 in the afternoon, 7 anywhere in the -- first of all, they can't be anywhere in 8 that park except with -- in this location during the 9 designated hours off - leash. 10 Does that mean we don't find people in the 11 dune area? We have one particular guy on a bicycle who 12 loves to leave his dog loose all the time. We issue 13 violations. There are ticketed offenses. We work with 14 the police. We work with the park. We work with 15 sanitation, and code compliance. We do dog details at all 16 of our parks, because this is a concern for a lot of our 17 residents, but in particular on the off -leash issue in 18 South Pointe Park we do enforce. 19 But if I could just go back to, Ms. Medina 20 mentioned the issue of the 18,000 square feet, let me -- 21 we had initially tried to give them a comparable space by 22 doing Option 1 when we relocated them temporarily because 23 of the construction of the Art in Public Places piece. 24 A couple of things happened. That also 25 coincided with the South Point Right of Way Project, where Page 39 1 Option 1 has been an issue for a lot of the -- it was an 2 issue for a lot of the dog owners, because they felt 3 really the size got diminished with the new plantings. 4 Those plantings were not the original 5 plantings. If you just said linear square feet, it was 6 18,000, comparable to Art in Public Places, but when you 7 consider all the trees from open space, you know, 8 perspective, the dogs owner feel it's a little less than 9 18,000. 10 MR. MINAGORRI: One last question, Hilda -- 11 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir. 12 MR. MINAGORRI: -- is there any plans to do 13 any benches or anything for pet owners to sit down? 14 MS. FERNANDEZ: That would be, obviously, 15 the next issue we'd have to consider. There are 16 benches -- what ends up happening with the cut walk side, 17 is that because it is elevated, people right now just sit 18 there, you know, that's where they typically sit to watch 19 their pets. 20 We haven't really talked about whether we 21 would place benches on the other side, and they sit on the 22 berm that's on the north side of it, because it is an 23 elevated berm. 24 You know, we did have benches around the, 25 you know, Art in Public Places piece, that was part of the Page 38 1 we took a lot of trees, and all off a sudden were able to 2 plant a lot of wonderful new palm trees in South Point 3 Park, specifically in the west lawn. So we did have 4 enhanced landscaping that has occurred, coincidently, in 5 the last year, while we were also, at a portion of which, 6 using that part of the park. 7 So we did hear from dog owners, when this 8 issue came to the Commission, where they said, that little 9 section is now so full of trees, that the open green space 10 has been diminished. So, give us the entire section, that 11 they thought they had all along, all the way to the 12 walkway, because now we have so much trees around the 13 edge, they're really, for purpose of long runs, throwing 14 the ball far, so Fitto can run, you know, whatever, 50 15 yards to get a ball, we've lost a lot, it's been 16 diminished if you leave it in that little space, with all 17 the new trees that have been planted. 18 So when we went to the Commission, we were 19 -- that's one of the things we said, you know, these are 20 the options, Option 1, or take it to the walkway, we have 21 some natural boundaries, it's now walkways on all three 22 sides, and the elevated cut walk, which is a differential, 23 about the height of a hedge, on the south side, and that 24 was one of the recommendations, which is presented as 25 Option B, but why Option 1 -- Option 2, rather, why Page 40 1 original plan, and people sat on the elevated cut walk 2 there as well to watch their dogs, when it was in the 3 Public Art Piece, but really at this point you have a 4 natural seating area created by that elevated cut walk, 5 which made this -- why it made this area preferable for 6 some of the folks, because, wow, you know, we had this 7 whole area where we can sit and, you know, be with our 8 dogs, and watch our dogs, which hopefully they're doing, 9 obviously, we hope. 10 So, again, the issue right now is hedge, no 11 hedge, square hedge, you know, that's really the reason 12 why we're before you today. 13 The program worked without a hedge, but when 14 we were having to deal with a permanent location, a 15 suggestion was made, that to address some concerns, maybe 16 some low lying line hedge to create a better physical 17 barrier beyond a walkway would be preferred and, you know, 18 that's why the item is before you today. 19 MR. CARY: Again, the Staff has recommended 20 just allowing the hedge to be an option. We're not 21 recommending that you require a hedge. We're saying that, 22 let the Parks Department, the administration see how the 23 program is working out without a hedge. If they find that 24 they need one, we put a condition in there whereby they 25 can have one, but the height should not exceed 24 inches, 10 (Pages 37 to 40) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 41 1 and it should be of a certain slow growing variety that is salt tolerant and all of that. So - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: Saraj. MR. SABA: Good morning, and thanks for 2 3 4 5 6 7 coming. I'm going to start by saying that I have 8 owned dogs before in my life, and I love animals, but I 9 don't have any now, and that's primarily because I have a 10 two year old boy, and.a ten month old boy, and I have 11 enough excitement in my life without a dog, but the 12 comparison is that dogs are a lot of work for an owner, 13 obviously, and you know, when you mix a dog with the 14 general public, and people that don't have dogs, there is 15 bound to be some conflicts, and that's generally why, when 16 you have a dog park, it's completely separate. 17 In most, you know, park situations, when 18 you're designing a park, you have -- you have that sort of 19 a discussion before the park is designed. 20 You know, I wasn't involved in the design of 21 this park, so I can only imagine that that either wasn't 22 part of the discussions of designing the park, or it, you 23 know, wasn't important to the people at the time. 24 But regardless, I mean, I think, you know, 25 that really there needs to be another location, if there Page 43 1 is -- you've got to be prepared that you're going to have 2 a torn up lawn, maybe not dismal, like the lady said, but 3 it's not going to be very attractive over time. 4 So, my recommendation is to look for another 5 location. If that can't be done, then definitely no 6 hedge, because I think that's really going to disrupt the 7 flow and the harmony of the park. 8 MS. FERNANDEZ: If I can, Mr. Chair, just to 9 answer, when the park was reaching its fmal design, it 10 went through its voter process, there was discussion about 11 the fact that this was not going to have a dog park within 12 it, a designated dog park, which is a fenced in dog park, 13 and when the park was fmally opened, there were multiple 14 meetings of our Board -- of our Commission Committees 15 about this particular subject. 16 The end product was the creation of a dog 17 park on Washington and Alton -- Washington and 2nd Street, 18 two blocks north of the park, and that is a fenced in dog 19 park, we took an open spaced park, diagonally across from 20 Collins little dog park, and created a large dog park, 21 with a water feature, benches, everything that a dog park 22 typically is, like the dog park we have at Pine Tree, the 23 one we have at Flamingo, the one we have at Belle Isles, 24 like the brand new one we're building in North Beach, we 25 built a dog park on Washington and 2nd specifically to Page 42 1 is going to be a dog park. I mean, you said it's not 2 really a dog park, but I don't really see how you can have 3 a dog park, or even a quasi dog park in a real park. 4 That being said, if it has to be somewhere 5 in this, in this park, I wouldn't put it in any of the 6 three locations, quite honestly. I think anywhere you put 7 a hedge in those locations is going to, is going to 8 disrupt the harmony of the design, the flow of the park. 9 I mean, so all three of those locations are out, as far as 10 I'm concerned. 11 If it had to be somewhere within the 12 boundaries of the park, I would look at other locations, 13 or I would look at somewhere off, you know, site, but 14 that's not an option. 15 You know, I mean, I have been in the 16 planning and design -- I've been involved in the planning 17 and design of several parks and, you know, it's -- I have 18 never seen anything like this really happen successfully. 19 There is always conflicts and, you know, dog owners, as 20 responsible as they are, they can clean up after their 21 pet, a hundred percent of the dog owners can pick up after 22 their pet, but they can't stop the dogs from running and, 23 you know, the cause of the dog, you know, bringing up the 24 sod, the urine of the dog, which nobody can pick up, is 25 going to deteriorate the sod, and so anywhere you put this Page 44 1 address the concerns of the dog owning community south of 2 5th, that this park, when it reopened, did not permit -- 3 did not provide for a dog area. 4 To be clear, apparently when the park, 5 before it was closed down, and shut down for construction, 6 was being informally and, frankly, illegally used as dog 7 off -leash area. So that you understand, the City code, 8 let alone the County code, did not allow the designation 9 of an off -leash area. 10 It was because of the dog owning community 11 that came to the City and said, great, we have a dog park 12 on Washington, but we still want an off -leash area in 13 Washington Park, but the City had to go to the County and 14 change County code to provide for enabling language to 15 allow this City to designate an off -leash area. 16 So there has been a lot of discussion. We 17 actually had to go and change County code to permit the 18 designation of an off -leash area in our City as a result 19 of multiple discussions on this very issue. 20 Ultimately the Commission chose to recommend 21 a pilot program to provide for off -leash hours, limited 22 hours, in an identified location, which is the pilot 23 program that has been on -going now since we were able to 24 change County code, and that was in December of 2010. 25 The problem is right now, that before the 11 (Pages 41 to 44) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 45 1 Commission makes a fmal determination on the off - leash, 2 they have said we want to take a look at adding, 3 potentially, a hedge somewhere around wherever the 4 off -leash area is going to be as a component of that 5 designated off -leash area. 6 But in answer to your question, yes, there 7 was discussion about a dog park, and a decision was made 8 to build a dog park on Washington Avenue, two blocks north 9 of the park, but in addition to that, there was a 10 determination by our Commission to also provide for 11 off -leash hours at South Pointe, and we've proceeded with 12 the pilot project as a result of the Commission's 13 direction. 14 MR. SABA: Is that dog park used? 15 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes, very well used, 16 including the Collins Park one, diagonally, there is one 17 across from Big King (phonetic), it's a very small one, 18 and diagonal from that, on the Washington -- on Washington 19 and 2nd, because they're both on 2nd, is the larger clog 20 park, it has a water feature, it's a nice, you know, area. 21 We, you know, went to the -- that was what the Commission 22 concluded, rather than building a permanent dog park at 23 South Pointe Park, in response to concerns about 24 aesthetics, and how that would impact the design, the 25 original design and intent of that park, beautiful park. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ,16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 47 it like a dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: The typical thing is like a fenced in dog park. MS. GRACIE: A typical fenced in dog park would consist of two dog runs, an acre in size total, with each side being approximately one half acre. The reason that you would have two sides is so that way, if one side becomes heavily denuded, you can close one side and still keep another side open. It also allows you to have one side designated for 25 pounds and under only, and the other side open to any size dog. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. GRACIE: And then what you do is you rotate them, and what that does is that allows us, from an operational standpoint, to be able to rotate the sides, because the bigger dogs will tear up the site faster. So we would periodically -- and we do this now at Flamingo Park, at the North Beach dog park, which is up at North Shore Open Space Park, we -- and Pine Tree, we automatically rotate those sides, as we start to see it denude, so that way we end up replacing a smaller amount of sod, and we're able to actually fence off that area that we're replacing without actually closing that dog run. Page 46 1 MR. CARY: And it's interesting, Hilda, 2 because that park at 2nd and Washington was originally 3 designed as a wonderful people park. 4 MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes. 5 MR. CARY: Especially for kids, it had a 6 little auditorium area and all of that, and then because 7 of the desire by local residents to have a dog park, we 8 then had to completely redesign it, Rhonda did a complete 9 redesign to make it exclusively for dogs. So it is 10 really, as you say, it's a dog park, it's not an off -leash 11 area. So, now we will actually have two dog parks and an 12 off -leash area. 13 MS. FERNANDEZ: Right. 14 MR. CARY: So it's kind of a dog heaven. 15 MS. FERNANDEZ: if you're south of 5th. 16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, I completely agree with 17 Seraj, and for the record, I have two dogs. So, I'm very 18 familiar with what dogs -- well, what my dogs do, and how 19 they behave, and how they don't behave. 20 So, I just have a few questions. You had 21 mentioned that the ideal size for an off -leash area would 22 be -- maybe be an acre. 23 Does -- how many -- tell me where the acre 24 sites are the city has now, that are off - leash. 25 MS. FERNANDEZ: I think we're referring to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 48 The dog owners are respectful of that, and then we're able to keep both sides open, and we're able to manage it a little bit better. MS. FERNANDEZ: So in answer to your question, the North Shore Open Space Park, dog park, is approximately -- which is a brand new dog park, about an acre. MR. HAGOPIAN: Unfenced. MS. FERNANDEZ: It's a fenced dog park. MR. HAGOPIAN: Oh, fenced, okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: This is the only designated off -leash area in the entire city, is in South Pointe right now. We have the dog park at Pine Tree Park right now. We are in the midst of discussions, just had a community meeting three weeks -- well, at the end of January, because there has been a -- there was a request for a designated off -leash area. As an alternative, we are looking at making the current enclosed dog park twice the size, to almost an acre, which seems to have addressed the concerns of the people who wanted an off -leash area, that felt that their little, their dog park was too small. Belle Isle is very small, and Flamingo is slightly less than an acre. So, I mean, frankly it's a space issue, 12 (Pages 45 to 48) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 49 1 because you have to take green space out for a designated 2 dog park. 3 MR. HAGOPIAN: Sure. 4 MS. FERNANDEZ: And the reason we don't have 5 larger parks, more than an acre, is because that's been a 6 restraint. 7 MR. HAGOPIAN: And the Washington fenced 8 park, how big is that, the one that's down here? 9 MS. GRACIE: The one at 2nd Street -- 10 MR. HAGOPIAN: Uh -huh. 11 MS. GRACIE: -- and Washington Avenue is 12 24,000 square feet. 13 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. 14 MS. FERNANDEZ: And Collins, across the 15 street is about six. 16 MS. GRACIE: Yes, about six - -- 17 MR. HAGOPIAN: And currently you said there 18 are no other people parks that have an off -leash -- 19 designated.off -leash program going on? 20 MS. FERNANDEZ: There was a request for Pine 21 Tree Park to have a designated off -leash area, with 22 complaints about the size of the current enclosed fence. 23 We went and -- we were directed to have a community 24 workshop, which we did, and one of the options was, we 25 presented, because there were concerns about the nature of Page 51 1 issues occasionally, people that don't know, or that just 2 don't care, and put their dogs off -leash during the day 3 when they shouldn't, or are in the wrong areas when they 4 should, would have an opportunity to put in the right 5 area. So we do monitor that, our code compliance staff 6 monitors all of our parks, because this remains an issue 7 of interest to our residents, people who want to go to the 8 park and enjoy it, not -- you know, I have dogs as well, 9 but I don't necessary want to have to worry about large 10 dogs when I'm at a park, in particular. 11 So that is something we do monitor, Code, 12 the Parks Department, and the security staff, in 13 particular. South Pointe Park is unique, because we do 14 have full -time security at South Pointe Park. 15 So, you know, unlike other parks, where we 16 don't have on present security guard all day, we do have 17 that at South Pointe Park, on top of the park staff, and 18 on top of the Code compliance staff, that has to do 19 routine checks there anyway, for many other issues, 20 including the off - leash, and pooper scooper laws and all 21 of that. 22 MR. HAGOPIAN: But I would hope the security 23 is not had -- this has nothing to .do with maintaining and 24 monitoring people - -- 25 MS. FERNANDEZ: Not the dog park. Page 50 1 how that park functions, is a little bit different, with a 2 designated off -leash area and, you know, with the pathways 3 and what have you. 4 So the alternative, we proffered at the 5 community meeting, was enlarging the current enclosed dog 6 park, and changing the way that the runs are coordinated, 7 to create longer areas, and we believe, based on the 8 people at the meeting, that that solution is going to be 9 the one that will be brought forward, and potentially 10 approved by the Commission. So we would not designate a 11 dog park -- off -leash area there. It would remain just a 12 larger dog park. 13 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. 14 MR. CARY: Hilda, I would expect that the 15 City Commission and the administration is going to monitor 16 this area very carefully, and if they find, you know, 17 after a year that there are serious problems with this 18 being an off -leash dog area, that the City Commission 19 would then take action to reverse its decision, or to do 20 something else. 21 MS. FERNANDEZ: That was the purpose of the 22 pilot, and why they didn't do the designation to begin 23 with. So we have been reporting back to the Commission on 24 a regular basis. We have been providing the statistics. 25 You know, obviously we do have enforcement 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 52 MR. HAGOPIAN: Yes, okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: General security. MR. HAGOPIAN: I mean, dogs pooping in the park, I mean, I hope they're keeping everybody safe. MS. FERNANDEZ: Yes. MR. HAGOPIAN: So the hours of the park will stay the same as they are in the pilot program right now. There is no idea that perhaps the hours would be extended, or - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Actually, funny you should ask. The original hours were only until 9:00 a.m., and beginning at 5:00 p.m. While we were discussing the pilot project recently, and as we were directed to proceed with looking at a hedge, at the same time there was a request by the dog owning community south of 5th to extend the hours. So those extended hours have actually only been in place, I believe, two months. So it used to be sunrise to 9:00 a.m., and 5:00 p.m. to sun -- to 7:00 p.m., and at the request of the Commission, and approved by the Commission subsequently, the hours are now until 10:00 and beginning at 4:00. MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. MS. FERNANDEZ: I, at this point, you know, I can't tell you whether they would be looking at extended 13 (Pages 49 to 52) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 53 1 hours, but the idea was its an off -leash designated area, 2 not intended to be a full-time dog park. 3 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. I -- a lot of what 4 Seraj said, I agree from a landscaping -- I think ifs 5 really strange to have this little hedged in area, right 6 at what I consider to be one of the main entries into the 7 park. 8 I mean, of course, cars park in the parking 9 lot, people walk in from all different areas, but this 10 sort of little paved area, that's to the east of the 11 apogee and -- I mean, this is where people walk in, and 12 where you can come down, and to have it right there, this 13 little hedged area, to me it just seems really off, off 14 the mark from the planning standpoint, from the landscape 15 side of how this park is. 16 I mean, we're so diligent about, when they 17 were redesigning the playground area, and the canopies, I 18 mean, to think that we would put this, what I consider, 19 and again I have dogs, but with or without the hedge, its 20 sort of like an off limits area to people now that don't 21 have dogs. 22 I mean, honestly, I get it, people have to 23 pick up the debris left by their dog, which is only the 24 solid debris, the other debris stays there, and you're not 25 really getting it all anyway, depending on what you feed Page 55 1 dogs a day come here and run, and I agree, the lawn is -- 2 you know, will get kind of tom up. 3 I don't really understand the hedge thing. 4 My -- you know, I have Terriers, you know, so they're not 5 huge dogs, but anyway, again, there is a zillion different 6 breeds of Terriers, and they love to go in hedges, and 7 through hedges, above hedges, on top of hedges, they'll 8 jump off of roofs. I mean, my dog has done all those 9 things. 10 So, I don't really -- if there is not going 11 to be a fence, I don't really get the hedge either. So, 12 Pm really not in -- I don't really feel much love for 13 this project. I don't understand it. 14 I applaud the residents in the area that got 15 together and somehow got the zoning changed to allow this. 16 I mean, I -- wow, I mean, that's amazing, The Commission 17 approved a pilot program. It doesn't mean the Commission 18 is going to approve the final program, and for me, I'm not 19 going to support this project on this Board right now. 20 MR. CARY: Jason, my understanding is that 21 the purpose of the hedge is to educate the dog owners, not 22 to -- not to educate the dogs. The dogs are going to jump 23 right over a two -foot hedge, obviously, but it's for the 24 purpose of the City to be able to enforce, and just say to 25 the owners, that is the area, if it should be needed. Page 54 1 you're dog, we all know what dogs do and, I mean, will 2 people even sit there any more? I mean, I would never 3 have a picnic in that area. 4 I live on an Island that has a median, where 5 everybody on my street, every other person has a dog. I 6 don't know, you've been monitoring what's been happening 7 here for last six months, I don't know if you have any 8 stats on the percentage of residents in this area that 9 have dogs and use this park, or how many people are using 10 the park with their dogs but, you know, everybody -- their 11 dog goes there, some people pick it up, some don't. 12 Here, of course, it's monitored. I'm 13 assuming some people maybe leave it and they -- you know, 14 I know that there are responsible dog owners, it's not 15 your responsibility to be -- to make everybody a 16 responsible dog owner, but, I mean, even knowing people 17 are picking it up, I'm not putting a blanket down there, 18 and I'm certainly -- I mean, I don't have any little kids, 19 but I would -- that whole part of the park to me would be 20 kind of off limits, and it just seems really weird to me. 21 I mean, I understand there is lots of dog owners, I have 22 two dogs. So, Pm all about to have a designated spot 23 where they can go and run, and go to the bathroom, but I 24 would never expect -- like, if I saw somebody picnicking 25 there, I'd be, like, hey, do you know that, you know, 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 56 MR. HAGOPIAN: Maybe a few signs, signs would be less intrusive and just as effective, I don't know, you need to go in where those hedges are. I'm not worried about -- I mean, I'm hoping at least the owners will understand that this is the dog area, but, I mean, a dog you can't -- you know, a dog is going to, like you said, it's going to do what it's going to do. I mean, even some people that were in support of the park, in their descriptions were saying, oh, well, you know, dogs -- we have two different kind of parks, because this park, first, this one is the grass, I forgot the word you used, but it's going to get destroyed, so they switched to this one, and they can fix the sod and, I mean, we don't even have that luxury here. So, this thing is going to get worn, worn down, and it's kind of in the first part of the park everybody sees when they come down that walkway. MS. FERNANDEZ: If I may, in all fairness, those are dog parks that are used full -time for that purpose. Pm not suggesting that the hours that were suggesting, that have been approved by the Commission, these are the hours the Commission approved, are going to result in proportionately less damage to the grass, but at the end of the day, you know, I want to just be clear, 14 (Pages 53 to 56) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 57 1 those are designated dog parks, that's all they're used 2 for, the dogs are in there, presumably only in there 3 off - leash, and tearing around, and doing whatever they do. 4 This is not a full -time dog park. It's a designated area. 5 It's used limit hours, and for the most part, you know, 6 the folks that go out there use it, because we obviously 7 go out there often, they're running their dogs, and when 8 they're done they're taking them home, because these are 9 folks who live in condos, and aren't folks that have a 10 backyard where they're able to do that behind their 11 homes. 12 MR. HAGOPIAN: Right, I understand. 13 MS. FERNANDEZ: But that would be the 14 difference between, you know, a dog park and the denuding, 15 which I think is the term. 16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Denuding, that's a new word 17 for me. 18 MS. FERNANDEZ: The denuding of the green 19 area. 20 MR. SABA: Would you say that the grass, the 21 lawn in the off -leash area, the current off -leash area is 22 exactly the same as other areas in the park, where, 23 like - -- 24 MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, we have sod issues in 25 the park as a whole, as you may know. So, and •I know what Page 59 1 So, you know, knowing that the dogs are 2 going to visit the park, and most of the dog owners that 3 we have seen in that park are residents that are walking 4 their dog, not getting out of a car. The other dog parks 5 we have in the city are generally driven to, a lot of them 6 are. 7 In this area they seem to be walking to the 8 dog parks. So, they're in the buildings, they're living 9 in close proximity to this area. So, it's a need that is 10 • there, and if we didn't have an area designated for that 11 use, they would be spread out in a larger area, and then 12 we don't have as much control, we don't have the ability 13 to target enforcement, which is what we do, the park is 14 heavily enforced. So, we have staff there seven days a 15 week, 12 hours a day, we have 24 -hour security there. 16 So, it is the best situation that we can 17 accommodate the dogs and the patrons, because another 18 point to make, that area that we're requesting to, be 19 looked at, the review, which is a combination of 1 and 2, 20 the coconuts do create a natural barrier for the dogs. It 21 does demarcate a dividing point. 22 The area that now houses the monument, the 23 new feature, the lighthouse is not appropriate any more, 24 because you did have a conflict between the cut walk and 25 one of the perimeters. So, that is something to consider, Page 58 1 we have there right now is rye grass but, John, you can 2 speak to what the - -- 3 MR. OLDENBURG: Yes, if I may; John 4 Oldenburg, Parks and Recrecration Department. 5 The photo that you're looking at on the 6 screen right now, that's a current photograph, and that is 7 the current area that's being used as the off -leash area. 8 That site has been used for that con -- 9 that's in the same condition that it was six months ago 10 when we started using that site. 11 Because we've got a larger space, and just 12 to make a point, the dogs in South Pointe, the off -leash 13 area is an answer to the existing condition that there are 14 dogs. I mean, the demographics have changed dramatically. 15 If we build three more parks, they're going 16 to be filed with dogs. It's not a question of, you know, 17 whether we need this area or not. It's a question of, 18 it's addressing a need. It does demarcate an area where 19 people can run their dogs, and it does lessen the dogs 20 that are in the rest of the park. 21 Historically the eastern part of the park, 22 which is east of the restaurant, where the playground is, 23 and has the Pavilion building, is the greater used area 24 for the patrons, for the picnicking and the sitting and 25 the area there, also the exercise goes on there, too. Page 60 1 because that's the main cut walk that goes towards the 2 McCarther, all the way back along the Marina side, and 3 that's, that's generally well used. 4 So this has been a better situation, as far 5 as usage, and as far as the denuding on the turf, the park 6 is irrigated, we're on an irrigation schedule. We do 7 understand that there are -- you know, we do have issues 8 with urination, but we also have the irrigation system to 9 naturalize that. It is a sandy soil. So, it does not 10 stay in the soil, it will run through. 11 MR. HAGOPIAN: The entire park is on -leash 12 right now. I mean, you could bring a dog anywhere 13 on- leash? 14 MR. OLDENBURG: The rest of the park is 15 on- leash. 16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Through the entire park? 17 MS. FERNANDEZ: Any time of day you can 18 bring your dog to that park on a leash and they can poop 19 and not get picked up. 20 MR. HAGOPIAN: And then a block north, you 21 have a complete area where a dog could go - -- 22 MS. FERNANDEZ: Unleashed. 23 MR. HAGOPIAN: -- unleashed. 24 MS. FERNANDEZ: Correct, 24/7. 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: So we're not providing enough 15 (Pages 57 to 60) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 61 1 for dog owners right now? 2 MR. OLDENBURG: Well, in Washington, 3 Washington Dog Park, Flamingo Dog Park, you're averaging 4 60, 70 dogs in there. I mean, there are a large -- there 5 is a large population of dogs in Miami Beach right now. 6 The owners, the demographics have changed. The owners are 7 younger, they've got -- they've got the dogs, and really 8 we're just addressing the need that's there. It's not 9 going to go away. In fact, it's going to get larger. So, 10 we're trying to accommodate as many people as we can, as 11 everybody is a patron of the park. So that's - -- 12 MS. FERNANDEZ: And, again, I just want to 13 re- emphasize, this issue was discussed at Committee and 14 Commission, we had folks on all sides of the issue come to 15 the publicly noticed meetings, express their opinion as to 16 why we needed this, or did not need this. 17 The Commission's decision at the time was to 18 proceed until June, they extended the pilot until June, to 19 give enough time for this to go through the DRB process, 20 because when they decided to proceed, they said we'd like 21 to look at the hedge option, and at which point we said, 22 well, that would require Design Review Board, because 23 you're creating now a physical barrier, blah, blah, which 24 is why it's here, but the only reason it wasn't approved 25 last time is that they decided they wanted to look at the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 63 But ultimately all of this discussion, you know, a lot of comments, and concerns, and support, and opposed, you know, those folks came to the Commission, and we hope they come to the Commission again to discuss whatever the result of your recommendation is when we move forward with the project. MR. CARY: So, Hilda, to help the Board in making its decision, if the majority of the members of the Board feel very strongly that there should not be an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, they can say -- they can make a motion that said, if it is decided by the City Commission to approve an off -leash dog program in South Pointe Park, we would recommend, you know, Area X. However, the Design Review Board, for a variety of reasons, is strongly opposed to an off -leash dog area at South Pointe Park, is that the type of - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I will tell you, William, I'm not your attorney, so I can't give you guidance, but the designation of an off -leash area, with no physical anything, I don't know would have even -- would not have even come to the DRB, that's been in place. MR. CARY: Well, it's the hedge - -- MS. FERNANDEZ: So what the issue is, really - -- MR. CARY: It's the hedge that raises it to Page 62 1 hedge as an option, and decided to defer the final 2 conclusion until they could include within the ordinance 3 the final location, but at the end of the day, there was 4 much discussion on exactly that issue from other folks who 5 said, hey, no hedge, no nothing, we already have it here. 6 I mean, that was -- there was a lot of 7 really good, diversity of opinion that was presented to 8 the Commission, and at the end of the day the Commission's 9 determination was to proceed with the pilot, to allow this 10 to go through the DRB process for a recommendation from 11 you as to, you know, potentially what you thought was the 12 best location in light of the aesthetic issues and, you 13 know, a hedge -- what your consideration was for a hedge 14 based on those locations, and we would take your 15 recommendation back to them, and then they will have to 16 make a final decision and, again, publicly noticed, 17 members of the community will come out. We hope, 18 obviously, the resident who spoke earlier will come out 19 and give her opinion, but in June we are scheduled to go 20 back, because this is when the current pilot project 21 expires. So our desire is to go back in May for first 22 reading. In the event it gets approved at first reading, 23 so it would be approved at the latest for the second 24 reading in June, when the current pilot project expires, 25 if that is the desire of the Commission. Page 64 1 the DRB. 2 MS. FERNANDEZ: Right, the final location is 3 important, and they wanted to get the input of the DRB, 4 especially as it relates to the potential .inclusion of a 5 hedge but, you know, obviously we've designated an 6 off -leash area for the last, over a year, based on the 7 direction of the Commission, and they had one location, 8 moved it to another location, but now as we're going to 9 the phase where they're actually considering a permanent 10 location, and this concept of a hedge came up, we really 11 do -- you know, we really -- obviously it needs to come to 12 this board if there is going to be a hedge, because that 13 has a -- it changes the landscape, so to speak, of what's 14 happening in that park. 15 You know, certainly you all can give any 16 recommendation, you know, certainly, but, you know, 17 ultimately, you know, they're going to consider -- what 18 they really wanted to get a recommendation from, was if 19 there was going to be a hedge, which of these areas would 20 make the best sense in terms of in this park. 21 MR. CARY: Would it be appropriate if the 22 board was to approve one area, to request the City put on 23 that sign that says off -leash dog area, also something 24 that says this area may not be used for picnics, or 25 something of that nature? 16 (Pages 61 to 64) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 65 1 Because I think it's a very real concern 2 that everybody -- I mean, it's common sense, I mean, you 3 don't want to sit down in an area in a picnic with your 4 kids where dogs have been for the last, you know, several 5 hours, so -- but it's just --- 6 MS. FERNANDEZ: You know, our concern would 7 be, this is a public open space. The reason why it's not 8 a designated dog park is precisely because it was intended 9 to be some minimal use during the day off-leash. 10 That area of the park can be used by anybody 11 with a dog on a leash, like any other part of the park can 12 be used by anybody with a dog on a leash. Someone can go 13 with a dog on a leash, where the Art in Public Places 14 piece is at, and have that dog poo and pee all over the 15 place, and it's on leash, it would be as detrimental there 16 as anyplace else in the park, but they could do that as 17 long as the dog is on a leash. 18 So really, we're talking about the 19 distinction of a designated off-leash area, where, from a 20 design perspective, in the park you believe is should be, 21 especially if it's going to have a recommended hedge 22 around -- a hedge around it, as has been suggested by some 23 members of the Commission. 24 They decided to proceed, because there was a 25 recommendation by one Commissioner, in particular, about 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 67 MR. CARY: I think it's well within your purview to make a recommendation relative to safety. MR. HAGOPIAN: But at the end of the day, we either approve or we do not approve an application. I mean, if we approve it --- MR. CARY: Well, the application requests that you approve a location if the City Commission makes a determination that it's correct to have an off-leash dog area here. MR. HAGOPIAN: And what if you don't like any of the locations? MR. CARY: Maybe the City Attorney's Office would like to provide further guidance. I'm getting -- MR. SABA: Could we ask that there --- MR. CARY: -- above my pay rate right now. MR. SABA: Could we ask that alternate locations be proposed? Because really those three locations, I think, are --- MR. CARY: But is there an alternate location within South Pointe Park that you would --- MS. FERNANDEZ: No, this would be the three alternate locations. We've tried to separate it from the children's playground area, which is not a fenced in children's area at this point. The other side of the hill is a dune area, which we wouldn't recommend. Page 66 1 the placement of a hedge, as a condition of approving the 2 project moving forward, and the full Commission said at 3 that point, well, then let's get the recommendation of the 4 DRB before we make a final determination. 5 It certainly isn't inappropriate to say 6 Option 1 with a hedge, Option 2, yes, I guess a hedge, but 7 we would recommend no hedge because there is already 8 natural boundaries, which is consistent with what the 9 Staff wrote, I think, in their report to you. 10 MR. CARY: And, again, I would go back to my 11 earlier guidance to the Board, is that whether there is 12 going to be a dog -- off-leash dog area here or not is a 13 City Commission policy decision, and that the Design 14 Review Board should really limit its decision to the 15 design issues associated with an off-leash dog area. 16 MR. HAGOPIAN: Design and safety. It's 17 about safety. That's what -- that's in our, you know, our 18 description -- 19 MR. CARY: It is. 20 MR. HAGOPIAN: -- of what we do. 21 MR. CARY: It is in your evaluation. 22 MR. HAGOPIAN: Appearance, aesthetics safety 23 and function. 24 MR. CARY: It's public safety, yes. 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: So --- Page 68 1 So really, in terms of public spaces, you 2 have the two lawns, the east lawn and the west lawn, and 3 you have the area where the public art piece is, and a 4 sliver of land that's between the walkway, where the 5 public art piece is, and apogee. 6 We recommended that space, but that space, 7 because of the landscape, ends up being even much smaller 8 than 18,000 square feet. So, that was already shut down 9 as a potential alternative, and that's what I'm referring 10 to, is this area, this is the public art piece area. We 11 attempted to do this area here. It's had additional 12 plantings in the area, and as a result the square footage 13 that was available was deemed too small, and was not 14 considered as an alternative, not even as a temporary 15 alternative when we were doing the construction here, 16 which is why we ended up moving it to a portion of the 17 west lawn, but when we've looked at all the other spaces, 18 I mean, this is planting and dunes, and elevated berms, 19 you know, this is the dune area, this is the children's 20 playground area, this area gets heavy use from children 21 playing and picnicking and what have you, people -- 22 because the restrooms are on this side of the park for 23 now. We may eventually have other restrooms on this side. 24 So, you know, we did look at other 25 alternatives. Unfortunately we could not find any 17 (Pages 65 to 68) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 69 1 alternative that provided some reasonable level of space, 2 based on what the expectations were from the dog owners in 3 the area, where they wanted something at least comparable 4 to that space, and that one, having very little 5 landscaping, because ifs a water's edge, was open green 6 space, and was, you know, very well used, and very -- you 7 know, people liked it, while it was available, but think 8 everybody else conceded that, you know, this works for 9 them because they have this physical barrier with the 10 elevated cut walk. 11 You know, the issue now is whether just to 12 do the half, or go all the way to the walkway, which are 13 Options 1 and 2, that are being presented. 14 MR. HAGOPIAN: Gary. 15 MR. HELD: So, just to clarify a few 16 jurisdictional questions that may have arisen. So first 17 and foremost, appeals from the Design and Review Board go 18 to the City Commission. So, the City Commission would 19 ultimately have final say over any issue that's presented 20 to you. 21 Also, there are no structures that are being 22 presented to you for approval. We're really just talking 23 about a landscape and wall, whatever you want to call it, 24 landscape, strip, hedge, and 1 don't know that your 25 decision is really dispositive on that issue, particularly 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 71 just Area 1, because I really feel strongly that the park should not be just kind of reserved for, you know, one kind of use, but it really doesn't make sense. If you're opposed to the hedge overall, which I think most us are because of the idea of the master plan, and how you want it open, then Area 1 by itself would necessitate a hedge of some sort. So it doesn't make sense. So really what's on our recommendation, or our consideration, is really Area 1 and 2 together, hedge or no hedge, you know, because I think all of us are in agreement that we don't want Area 3 as a consideration. MS. FERNANDEZ: And I think we also considered the fact that, you know, Option 1 represents literally creating a hedge in the middle of an open green space right now, which is a little odd from a design perspective, you know, because while there is a natural boundary at the walkway, there isn't one in the middle, that's just, we picked a location that more or less gave them sufficient square footage, and that's where we kind of demarcated a hedge. So it breaks out the, you know, the free and open lawn that's there right now, where you have an open vista. You know, if the decision is to put a hedge, ultimately, which the Commission needs to -- you know, Page 70 1 given the nature of the appeal process. 2 So really you're making a recommendation to 3 the City Commission. They have the right to overrule you 4 if an appeal were to be filed. 5 So, you know, look at the application, give 6 it your best decision. You know, whatever the majority 7 decides, the administration will review it, and then they 8 need to take it to the City Commission anyway, whether 9 they take it as an original matter in their proprietary 10 capacity, or as an appeal, the City Commission will make 11 the fmal decision. 12 MR. CARY: That kind of makes it a lot 13 easier, doesn't it? 14 MR. HAGOPIAN: It only sounds a lot easier 15 but -- Lilia, did you have something? 16 MS. MEDINA: Just another question. 17 Hilda, on Area 1, which is existing pilot 18 program area, in the -- in our drawings we have a 19 suggested hedge between Area 1 and Area 2. 20 So, if one were to go only for Area 1, the 21 existing area that's being used now, you had mentioned 22 earlier that, you know, people use the whole area anyway, 23 and that you had a sign in the middle saying, this is the, 24 you know, dedicated area, but people just don't really -- 25 so, in my mind, I had said earlier that I would go with Page 72 1 that was what they couldn't decide on, but if the decision 2 is to do a hedge, you know, clearly it's going to at least 3 be contiguous with the current walkways. So, that might 4 present less of a physical, wow, you know, there is a 5 hedge in the middle of a park in a green space. 6 So, you know, that's why that option is 7 there and, again, the Staff offers the, you know, the 8 option of, you know, presenting it, okay, if you're going 9 to do a hedge, maybe here, but we prefer no hedge, you 10 know, all together, as an alternative, I think, that they 11 put in the memo to you, but that's kind of where we're at 12 with that, and we've talked about additional openings as 13 well, again, to make sure people understand that this is 14 intended to be a free and open use, it's not a dog park. 15 So, we're looking at, you know, whether we have additional 16 openings to make it clear that this is an area that people 17 are free and easy -- you know, willing to -- or able to 18 access during the day, whenever they want. 19 MR. CARY: I would make one -- like to make 20 one quick suggestion. If it's the majority of members 21 that feel strongly against having an off -leash area in 22 South Pointe Park, I would not want to see the Design 23 Review Board forfeit its opportunity to make a 24 recommendation as to which of the three areas that are 25 being considered would be the preferred location should a S +4 18 (Pages 69 to 72) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 73 1 dog, off -leash dog area be determined to be appropriate by 2 the City Commission. I think you at least want to have 3 that recommendation into the City Commission. 4 Because it sounds to me like were going to 5 end up having an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, 6 and I just don't want you to forfeit your opportunity, and 7 then we find that we have an off -leash dog area around the 8 lighthouse, you know, which I think would be the worst. 9 MR. HAGOPIAN: So, hypothetically, if we 10 select Area 2, which is the big piece, and we decide -- 11 and we want the hedge, but we want the hedge to kind of 12 meander through the trees, blah, blah, blah, and then you 13 don't get four votes, what happens? 14 MR. CARY: The motion fails. I mean - -- 15 MR. HAGOPIAN: And then what happens? 16 MR. CARY: Well - -- 17 MR. HAGOPIAN: You still need to have a 18 majority, right? I mean, you still have to have four. 19 MR. HELD: That matter -- that would be your 20 decision. Your decision would probably be appealed to the 21 City Commission, because the application would still need 22 to be approved before the work could commence, and the 23 City Commission would make the fmal decision, but 24 whatever your decision is, it would be reported, along 25 with the appeal. Page 75 1 all urination of the dogs, that the grass is going to 2 suffer, and there is going to be a real difference between 3 seeing other areas of grass and here, but I look at this 4 picture, and this looks like it was just recently planted. 5 Do you guys do something -- I mean, do 6 people use this area now, besides as the dog area, to come 7 and do picnics, does anybody complain of the smell, does 8 anybody complain that they're sitting on a foul area? 9 • I mean, is that something that really is -- 10 I mean, are you guys doing something special to keep this 11 at this level, or is it -- this is the way it's always 12 going to be? 13 MR. OLDENBURG: Actually that park is 14 maintained -- the entire park is maintained at the same 15 . standard. So, one issue, we have not had complaints of 16 residents, or patrons of the park, you know, wanting to 17 visit that area and, of an odor, or any other negative 18 complaint, except for some people that do not want the mix 19 of the dogs with the people. 20 I mean, there are people that don't want any 21 dogs - -- 22 MR. MINAGORRI: Right, but when you are on 23 the off times, between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., do people 24 other than -- that do not have dogs, do they actually go 25 to this area-and actually sit there, is there any Page 74 1 Anyway, that's the way I see it. I don't 2 know what Staff is contemplating, but -- so your 3 sentiments on this will be presented to the City 4 Commission in any event, because it is going to be 5 presented at some point, and the only question is, in what 6 form does it take, does it take the form of a decision by 7 this board, or an appeal, or something else. 8 So, feel free to decide whatever you think 9 appropriate, given your best judgment. 10 MR. MINAGORRI: You mentioned that the photo 11 that was taken here is already after the park has been in. 12 use as an unleashed park for -- after six months. 13 MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the photo that I have 14 on the screen right now, that's basically since -- that 15 usage since November. 16 MR. MINAGORRI: Okay. 17 MR. OLDENBURG: We're in -- right now were 18 in March. 19 MR. MINAGORRI: So - -- 20 MS. GRACIE: I physically took that 21 photo - -- 22 MR. OLDENBURG: This photo was recent. This 23 is just a week ago. 24 MR. MINAGORRI: So, in your opinion, because 25 I think Seraj made a point, that with all the feces, and Page 76 1 complaints at that time that this is not a safe place to 2 be in? 3 MR. OLDENBURG: No, we have not received 4 that. I mean, people do sit underneath the trees, 5 especially along, adjacent to Washington Avenue, they sit 6 there, you know, around noon time, when there is shade, 7 but the primary users of the park are using the eastern 8 section of the park, east of the restaurant, that's the 9 majority usage, and then the cut walk. So, there is usage 10 on the west side. 11 MR. MINAGORRI: So what is the usage of this 12 area, other than the dog area? When the dogs are not 13 there, what happens in this 1 and 2 parcels? 14 MR. OLDENBURG: Compared to the rest of the 15 park, ifs very little used, as far as patrons. 16 It may be transversed, but that sidewalk 17 that's in your photo, is a major corridor where people 18 walk through to the cut walk, but most of the people that 19 enter to the park are already on the cut walk when they 20 enter the park, they're coming along from the bayside, 21 along the marina side, and they're also coming in from the 22 north. 23 So, there is a lot of cut walk users, and a 24 lot of the park -- parking -- because of the parking 25 situation in that park, there is not a lot of traffic that 19 (Pages 73 to 76) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 77 1 people are driving to that park just to go to the park, 2 they're going to the restaurant, and while they're at the 3 restaurant, they're using the rest of the park, or they're 4 driving to the park to use the playground and the water 5 features, or they access the beach, but as far as patrons 6 that are driving to that park, they're primarily coming 7 from the local buildings that are adjacent to the park, 8 and they're walking from the cut walk, they're walking 9 from Washington, but primarily from the cut walk area. 10 MS. FERNANDEZ: That is an excellent 11 question. Again, the current and only restaurants in the 12 park are adjacent to the east lawn, right next to the only 13 concession in the park, Blissberry Yogurt, right next to 14 the children's play area, right next to the splash ground. 15 In the future, depending on what happens 16 with the Washington Avenue entrance, if there is a 17 decision made, as we proceed with dealing with the 18 fountains, it may require the building of restrooms on the 19 other side of the Washington Avenue entrance. 20 At that point you might see more activity on 21 that side of the park, but naturally speaking, the folks 22 and the families that use it are using the areas adjacent 23 to the tot lot, near the bathroom, next to the splash 24 ground, and that is on the east lawn primarily. I'm not 25 saying there's never activity there, but the majority of Page 79 1 determined by the City Commission to have an off -leash dog 2 program in South Pointe Park, which area the board would 3 recommend, and what your position would be relative to it 4 be optional, at the Parks Department's discretion, whether 5 a hedge should be introduced, or whether you want to 6 require a hedge, or whether you want to require no hedge. 7 MR. HAGOPIAN: So that would be part of one 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25. motion. MS. HOUSEN: I have one more question, before we get to that. Is there a reason Area 1 and 2 cannot be separated? Because one side of it is 18,000 feet, and one side of it is 14,000 feet. So, in total it's just under one acre. Could it not just be 1 or 2? Why do they have to be com -- it's, like, we have a choice of 3, or 1 and 2. MR. OLDENBURG: Well, the useable space that you actually have in Site 1 would be inside that tree line, and there is, because of the extended tree plantings, the usable space is quite less than 18,000 square feet, and the combined area of usable space is very close to the 18,000. MS. HOUSEN: So it needs to be combined? MR. OLDENBURG: Yes. MS. FERNANDEZ: Well, I mean, obviously Page 78 1 the activity, family -wise or whatever, you tend to see 2 closer to the restroom and splash ground and concession, 3 which is the other side, the other lawn. 4 MR. CARY: Mr. Chairman, I just had a brief 5 conversation with the Park's director, Kevin Smith. The 6 Board could make two separate motions. It could make one 7 motion opposing an off -leash dog area in South Pointe 8 Park, and it could make a second motion recommending that 9 if an off -leash dog area is found to be appropriate by the 10 City Commission, that the board would recommend Area, you 11 know, X, Y or Z. 12 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay. Well, maybe just -- we 13 can maybe do a straw poll for the motion of which part of 14 those three properties we feel would be best if you had to 15 pick one of the three. 16 MR. SABA: And if there should be a hedge or 17 no hedge. 18 MR. CARY: And then there is the hedge 19 issue, yes. 20 MR. MINAGORRI: That could be divided into 21 two different motions, one selecting the area, and the 22 other one is selecting where the hedges are. 23 MR. CARY: One motion would be how the Board 24 feels about having an off -leash dog area in South Pointe 25 Park, period. The next motion would be, if it's Page 80 1 that's a decision the Commission will make. They wanted 2 us to look at all of the options. 3 Just to be clear, the original 4 recommendation that was submitted by Staff, the Staff 5 administrative recommendation, did not include a hedge. 6 The hedge option was discussed as part of the presentation 7 of the item by the Commission. It was introduced as an 8 option for consideration of approval. 9 But the original request was just leaving 10 this as an off -leash area, without a hedge, which is how 11 it's been functioning for the last year, but this -- 12 because of this additional request, as a result of the 13 Commission discussion, and that's why we've submitted the 14 DRB application but, you know, to Ms. Housen's point, yes, 15 the concern that's been raised -- that has arisen now is 16 that the area we had designated -- and by the way, when we 17 went to the Commission and showed them the maps, and we 18 said this is the area, because of the safety issues that 19 resulted in us not being able to put signs in the middle 20 of the open field, they had assumed that this open space, 21 all the way to the walkway, was the approved off -leash 22 area, and when we said, no, no, that wasn't what was the 23 pilot, temporary area, they came to the Commission and 24 said, then we have a concern, the useable space is now 25 much smaller because of new plantings, we want you to 20 (Pages 77 to 80) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 81 1 consider going all the way to Washington -- to this 2 walkway. 3 So, we were directed to present all three 4 options to you, the original space that we thought was, 5 everybody understood was the off -leash area, the pilot 6 area, all the Washington Avenue and, of course, the 7 original location, where we had placed it before the 8 construction of the lighthouse. 9 But, you know, again, the project moved 10 forward. It's just a designated off -leash area. The 11 concept of a hedge was something that was introduced as we 12 were discussing the pilot, and whether the pilot should or 13 shouldn't continue. 14 MR. CARY: Okay. Okay. 15 MR. HAGOPIAN: So as far as for straw poll 16 purposes, we're looking at Area 1, which is the small 17 part, or Area 2, which is the small part, plus the part 18 next to the small part. 19 Is there -- well, we're not looking at 3, I 20 guess, because we don't want it near the public art, or is 21 that an option that you think is better? 22 MR. SABA: I mean, if it had to be there, I 23 would -- if it had to be somewhere -- 24 MR. HAGOPIAN: You would pick 3? 25 MR. SABA: -- I would pick 3. 1 It's -- 2 MR. SABA: Which is why there shouldn't 3 be -- 4 5 6 7 Page 83 MR. CARY: -- a serious concern. MR. SABA: -- a dog park at this park. MR. CARY: Well, again, you can make two separate motions, but - -- 8 MR. LAVA: I'm Dennis Lava, Art in Public 9 Places. 10 Number one, a world class artist would have 11 never even submitted a Public Art Sculpture for a dog 12 park. 13 MR. SABA: Look, sir, please, I'm not 14 advocating for the dog park to be at -- 15 MR. LAVA: Correct. 16 MR. SABA: -- that location. We're being 17 forced to make a decision here of one of three locations. 18 Our hands - - I'm saying none of the locations, zero, none, 19 not one. 20 MR. LAVA: And I would also like to point 21 out, when the artist designed that, if you notice the 22 bottom puck of the sculpture, that's intended to be an 23 area for people to sit and view the sunset, and I know 24 everybody beats around the bush here, but nobody is going 25 to be sitting in that, dog owner or not, when you're Page 82 1 MS. MEDINA: Because it's away from the 2 center. 3 MR. SABA: It's away, it's off to the side, 4 it doesn't divide that large grassy area, and it doesn't 5 take that whole area away from people that want to, you 6 know, use it. I mean, that's a large area. You can -- 7 you know, if you wanted to, you know, for football, or 8 baseball, or something, if somebody else wanted to play 9 there, and you put a hedge down the middle of it, that 10 really ruins it, and then if you have a bunch of dogs 11 running around there, when somebody wants to use it, you 12 know, even if it's just for a few hours of the day, 13 they're not going to go there because there is going to be 14 a lot of dogs there. So, you're excluding other users, at 15 least during that time. 16 MR. CARY: My concern, board members, is 17 that the Design Review Board, you know, had held two 18 public hearings relative to what the correct location is 19 for the Art in Public Places piece, and you made that 20 decision in light of the fact that there was never 21 contemplated to be a dog park, an off -leash dog area 22 there, and it would really be contradictory to identifying 23 a location for a half a million dollar piece of public 24 art, and then create an off -leash dog area around it that 25 would limit public access to a piece of public art. Page 84 1 sitting on feces and urine, because that's all cement. 2 So, you're basically taking away one of the intents of the 3 work of art, and that was the area selected. 4 Nobody is going to be sitting there to be 5 sitting in dog feces and urine, and that's not going to go 6 away, because ifs stuck on cement. 7 MR. SABA: Which is why we shouldn't have 8 this in this park at all. I mean that makes my point. 9 But understand, were being asked to make a 10 decision -- we're being given three alternatives, none of 11 which are suitable, but we're having to chose one of them. 12 MR. LAVA: Well, I was just explaining the 13 intent of that lower seating, which is for people to sit 14 and view it, not to sit in feces, which will probably 15 happen if you do do the dog park there, and it's also less 16 space. 17 MR. HAGOPIAN: Carol, which location do you 18 support? 19 MS. HOUSEN: I don't support any location, 20 or shrubs. If that's the straw poll, I'd be willing to -- 21 MR. HAGOPIAN: But if you had to? 22 MS. HOUSEN: -- put it in a motion. 23 MR. HAGOPIAN: Mickey? 24 MR. MINAGORRI: I would support the Area 1 25 and 2. 21 (Pages 81 to 84) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 Page 85 1 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the big space? 2 MR. MINAGORRI: The big space, yes. 3 MR. HAGOPIAN: Lilia? 4 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I would support Area 1 and 5 2 combined, without a hedge, if we're going to go with an 6 off -leash area, and I would also support not having an 7 off -leash area at all. 8 MR. HAGOPIAN: So the two motion concepts? 9 So, she would support using the large area, 10 which is actually called Area 2, with no hedges, as one 11 motion, and then she would also make another motion that 12 would say that she does not -- that she's does not 13 support -- 14 MS. MEDINA: An off - leash area at all. 15 MR. HAGOPIAN: -- any off -leash area in the 16 entire South Pointe Park. 17 MS. MEDINA: And I certainly don't want to 18 have any consideration for Area Number 3. I think that 19 area, as you may recall when we voted on this, those 20 members, when the Board who were on here, there was a 21 concern for it to be a pusua (phonetic), and it was 22 mentioned in our discussion, and I really feel that a 23 world class piece of art, public art space is not 24 conducive to having dogs going around them. 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, and I think for me it's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 87 MS. HOUSEN: That's my first motion. MR. CARY: Saying that there be no off -leash dog area in South Pointe? MS. HOUSEN: No, the first motion is no hedge, against the hedge, the hedge that's been proposed. MR. CARY: If there is an off -leash dog area in South Pointe Park, that there be no hedge, is that what you're saying? MS. HOUSEN: The first -- okay. Let me, let me revoke what I just said. The first motion should be that we don't have an off -leash dog park. MR. CARY: In South Pointe Park. MS. HOUSEN: In South Pointe Park, and can I not make it inclusive, that we do not - -- MR. CARY: But I would recommend that you make just a completely separate motion. MS. HOUSEN: Okay. That's my motion, that we do not support the off - leash dog park. MR. MINAGORRI: Pll second. MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor. UNIDENTIFIED: I. MS. HOUSEN: I. UNIDENTIFIED: I. UNIDENTIFIED: Nay. MR. HAGOPIAN: So it passes. Page 86 1 important that we send a strong message to the Commission, 2 at least, which is why I support the two motions, I don't 3 think it should go anywhere here either, but if we can't 4 just make a motion that we don't want the park here, and 5 we have to make a second motion to pick a spot to put the 6 park, or put the dog leash area, I guess that's what we 7 have to do. 8 MS. HOUSEN: Jason, can I make a motion that 9 we vote against any, the shrubby plan that's been 10 proposed, to not use it, and the second part of that 11 motion, that we do not choose a location for off -leash 12 dogs, could that be part of the motion? 13 MR. CARY: Would you make that two separate 14 motions, though? I think you want to make one motion 15 that's very strong. 16 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. Let me repeat that. 17 MR. CARY: If everybody is opposed to 18 putting in an off -leash dog area, I think you want to have 19 a strong motion to reflect that specifically. 20 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. The first motion is DRB 21 File 22894, and the first motion is to not support the 22 install -- installation of any hedge, excuse me, 23 delineating any area. I think it would really harm the 24 park. That's my first motion. 25 MR. CARY: Is that motion - -- 1 2 motion. 3 Okay. Any - -- 4 MS. HOUSEN: The Commission can undo it if 5 they choose, and just, that's our recommendation. That's 6 the first one. 7 And the second one is that, to not delineate 8 any areas with the hedging that's been proposed, any area. 9 MR. HELD: So if there is a dog -- an 10 off -leash dog area, that there is no hedges. 11 MS. HOUSEN: That there be no hedges. 12 MR. CARY: Do you -- does the board have a 13 preference relative to which of the three areas? 14 MS. HOUSEN: No, I don't support any of the 15 areas. It's up to the board - -- 16 MR. HELD: That would be a separate motion 17 as well. 18 MR. CARY: Again, I just don't want for the 19 board to forfeit its opportunity to make a recommendation 20 of - -- 21 MR. HELD: Was there a second to - -- 22 MS. HOUSEN: But the dogs can still be in 23 the park. They just can't be off - leash, right, they still 24 have the full park. We're not saying no dogs, just no 25 off - leash. Page 88 MR. HELD: So, four to one in favor of the 22 (Pages 85 to 88) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 89 1 MR. HELD: Okay. See if there is a second to this motion. MR. SABA: I'll second it. MR. HELD: Okay. Seraj, second. MR. CARY: Could you repeat the motion again, please? I'm still a little bit - -- MR. HELD: This is if there is a dog -- an off -leash area in the park, there should be no hedges, correct? MS. HOUSEN: Yes, that's correct. Thank 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 you. 12 MR. HELD: You're welcome. 13 MR. HAGOPIAN: Seraj seconded it. 14 MR. CARY: Yes. 15 MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor? 16 GROUP: I. 17 MR. HELD: So it was unanimous, five to 18 zero. 19 MS. HOUSEN: Okay. 20 MR. HELD: Any recommendation on if there is 21 an off -leash area, where it should go? 22 MS. MEDINA: Yes, I would like to make a 23 motion to recommend Area Number 2, which is the total of 24 34,000 square feet and, again, you know we've already 25 voted on no hedges, so - -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 91 the great decision to put the park here in the first place. I mean, at this point you're telling us we don't have much effect here. I mean, it looks to me like this is going to happen, unless the Commission values what this Board has said, and - -- MR. CARY: Right, but if you have only three choices for dinner, and you have to eat, I would rather, at least, have a chance to choose which of those three I don't like, rather than ending up with something that I -- is going to make me sick. MS. HOUSEN: But, Mr. Cary, with due respect, this is still in a pilot program, and I think it's very important that the Commission hears what we feel about it, because it's still a pilot. It's not approved, is that correct? MR. CARY: That's correct. MS. HOUSEN: Right, ifs a pilot program, and I think it's important. MR. CARY: Okay, but all I'm saying is that there should be no complaints from anyone that voted in opposition to selecting an area if we find that we have an off -leash dog area around the lighthouse, you have forfeited your opportunity to - -- MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, does anybody want to make a motion to exclude the lighthouse location? Becaus Page 90 1 MR. HELD: So, if there is an off -leash area 2 in South Pointe Park, it should go in Area - -- 3 MS. MEDINA: Number 2. 4 MR. MOONEY: Lilia, is that 1 - -- 5 MR. HELD: Which includes Number 1? 6 MR. MOONEY: Right. 7 MR. HELD: Okay. 8 MS. MEDINA: A combined area, total of 9 34,000 square feet. 10 MR. MINAGORRI: Pll second that. 11 MR. HAGOPIAN: All those in favor? 12 GROUP: I. 13 MS. HOUSEN: Nay. 14 UNIDENTIFIED: Nay. 15 MR. HAGOPIAN: I. 16 MR. HELD: So it's 3 to 2. 17 MS. MEDINA: It passes. 18 MR. HELD: Well, four votes, but that's the 19 recommendation to the City Commission. 20 MR. CARY: So you are forfeiting your 21 opportunity to give advice to the City Commission relative 22 to what -- which of the three areas - -- 23 MR. HELD: No, they just did. William, they 24 just did. You report a three to two vote on Area 2. 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: The Commission already made Page 92 1 we can do that? 2 MS. MEDINA: Sure, I'm make that motion. 3 MR. MINAGORRI: I'll second that. 4 MS. MEDINA: The motion is to remove. Option 5 or Area Number 3 from any consideration for an off -leash 6 area at the park. 7 MR. HAGOPIAN: We have a second from Mickey. 8 All those in favor? 9 GROUP: I. 10 MR. CARY: Seraj? 11 MR. SABA: Can I sustain from voting? 12 MR. HELD: No, there no abstaining, sorry. 13 MR. HAGOPIAN: That's okay, we got um, you 14 can say nay. 15 MR. SABA: Nay. 16 MR. HELD: Okay. So, it's four to one. 17 MR. HAGOPIAN: Okay? 18 MR. HELD: Thank you. 19 MR. HAGOPIAN: All right. Thank you. 20 Thanks for your time. 21 MS. MEDINA: Thank you very much. 22 MR. CARY: Thank you, folks. I'm sorry that 23 was so painful. I knew that it would be, and I didn't 24 think it was going to be a 15 minute hearing. 25 MR. HAGOPIAN: This is our last one, right? 23 (Pages 89 to 92) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358 -8875 24 (Pages 93 to 94) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. (305) 358-8875 Page 93 1 MR. CARY: I mean, there is such compelling 2 arguments on both sides. It's very difficult. Thank you 3 for bearing with us. 4 5 6 7 8 (Thereupon, the Meeting was concluded.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 . 17 18 19 . 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 94 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA : 5 COUNTY OF MIAMI-DADE : 6 7 I, Cheryl L. Jenkins, RPR, Shorthand 8 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 9 at Large, do hereby certify that the foregoing Meeting was 10 transcribed by me from a CD from a recording made on the 11 date and at the place as stated in the caption hereto on 12 page 1; that the foregoing computer-aided transcription is 13 a true record to the best of my ability of said 14 proceedings. 15 WITNESS my hand this 28th day of March, 2012 16 17 18 19 CHERYL L. JENKINS, RPR 20 Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large 21 Commission #DD 920461 December 27, 2013 22 23 24 25 24 (Pages 93 to 94) OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. 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15:19,20,22 16:1,10,11 17:10 21 :9 21:9,22 22:2,9,21,23 25:21,23 29:25 36:5,8 36:16 37:10 39:17 40:1 41:14,23 46:3 48:22 49:18 50:8 51:1,7,24 53:9,11,20 53:22 54:2,9,11,13,16 56:8 58:19 61:10 68:21 69:7 70:22,24 72:1 3,16 75:6,18,19 OUELLETTE & MAULDIN COURT REPORTERS, INC. 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